Undeads v/s Orcs Attackers

[Twyla]

Let's say you have three provinces you can chain, race and defense are the same:
A) tactician or warrior with no hospitals, cast pitfalls, BG, BL, and emerald dragon
B) cleric with no additional modifiers
C) War hero with Marquis honor benefits

You're telling me you choose B because they don't lose as many dspecs when you attack them?

A ) Easiest to chain and quickest to take out of the running
B ) Toughest to chain but will be stinging a hell of a lot longer
C ) At the present, there are only 2 Orcs and 3 Undeads in the entire game that are Marquis or higher - and I doubt any of them are War Heroes, as they'd be magnets for Spells and Ops.

[Bishop]

Even a non-Cleric will likely be forced to release troops (even with higher casualties) in order to survive a solid chaining. While a Cleric retains more defense specs, they'll just wind up having to release them anyways - gaining nothing over the non-Cleric.

You don't release them though - you slay a drake or you aid solds. Being cleric is not a disadvantage on a chain - its a misconception that many people have.

"Population exceeds Max Population: Your peasants will leave and no new peasants will be born. Peasants leave at a rate of 7% of total peasants or the amount you are overpopulated by, whichever of the two is lower. "

They don't lose peasants faster either.

[Zisef]

SO I should not pick Dwarf/Cleric B/c they are stinky?

[Avenger]

Please correct me if you still feel I'm wrong, but I've run the numbers every way I can think of and they all come to the same conclusion - a chained Cleric is toast.

You're making me lose faith in humanity. But who am I to judge; I'm guessing Cleric can only be a hidden penalty personality in ghetto mentality.
Tho people should know better than to argue with your math after what we've seen in the "Age 54 Potential Changes Rev II" racial discussion.

[citadela01]

your beyond hope twyla^^

you dont want to retain peasants when chained, you want them gone, its even smart to ask your kd mates to FB you depending how severe chain is
you dont want to release troops while geting chained, you want solider aid if aplicable considering your ending acre size (presuming incoming land)
you want as much def as posible while your troops are returning to weather the storm

its only WHEN your troops return you are actually concearned about overpopulation %, you than build acres, landlust all you can, slay and eventually release and aid out sols if you have to to get yourself under 115% pop to be able to hit

your doing everything wrong, you should listen to more experienced ppl and not try to advocate bad ideas and wrong opinions simply because they are yours

[Twyla]

You're making me lose faith in humanity. But who am I to judge

See the following:

Being cleric is not a disadvantage on a chain - its a misconception that many people have.

I may be wrong, but I'm not alone.

They don't lose peasants faster either.

Syntax error on my part - I meant to say they lose more peasants total than non-Clerics.

But I get what you're saying.



For what it's worth, thank you.

[nooblet]

I've played Cleric this age without access to animate dead, and got chained more than once. My kingdom has also chained clerics. All I can say is, my experience tells me you are wrong. I don't know how I can say it in a way to convince you, until it happens. I'm having enough difficulty arguing with my kingdom over what provinces to use next age... some people are so damn stubborn in how they want to play the game. *shrug*

When a province is chained - the best thing is to be able to stabilize your province as much as possible. Releasing all defense, and losing your peasant base, is exactly what the people who chain you want to happen, as afterwards your province is very hard-pressed to recover and do anything other than suicide at the bottom. The best thing you can do when being chained is make your province as time-consuming to take out of the war as possible.

About the only bad thing to be said about Cleric is that a good kingdom will probably chain someone else instead, and use t/m ops to tear apart a cleric. It also is a defensive personality, and it's bonuses can't really be buffed to great effect.

[Landro]

Syntax error on my part - I meant to say they lose more peasants total than non-Clerics.

No, they don't. As Bishop said, you lose 7% of your peasants. This has nothing to do with how much your overpop is. It makes no difference if you're 150 or 200% overpopped as far as peasant loss in concerned. In order to attack, all you have to do is drop your pop below 115% and then you can attack. You don't even have to wait for the next tick.

Yes, Cleric will deter the time when other attackers can switch from doubles to triples/quads, but the attacks will come nonetheless - nothing they can do will prevent this. The best they can accomplish is delaying when the opposing Kingdom turns their attention to someone else.

No they won't leave you be. Chains are only effective if you go deep and that's what Cleric slows down. If they stop their chains to soon then the damage they cause you will be very limited and that is a losing strategy. If it takes them longer to chain you deep enough then you've performed a great service to your kingdom.

[I_am_Spartacus]

Orcs are better. UD has no gains or attack time benefit (true war bonuses)

[Crypticterror]

citadela01

tottaly agree with you,
It's ashame allot of people don't understand that when a province gets chained in certain situations that prov needs,
sold aid
getting fb'ed couple of times to make hiss attack instead of releasing defence so that he ends up bieing a leftover target

But also cleric means less troops die off so while say sold aid is really spare, you already got a low pezzie count so letting your kd mates fb'ing you isn't a real option or that you have been chained so hard already that your wpa skyrocket and need the wpa still to do LL and other nasty stuff
WELL THAT MEANS you have to release.

Wohoo! I lost less troops by those 20-40 attacks they made on me wohoo I STILL HAVE MORE TROOPS ALIVE SO MORE TROOPS TO SEND TO DRAGON!

Sorry for capslock but hopefully some people understand now why cleric is a blessing when getting chained for you and your kingdom.
ofcourse if you onley logg in once a day you can't uttilize it but in wartime you should always logg in when you wake op and before you go to bed and somewere in the middle that is just a minimum in war 3 logg ins is just needed if you don't do that then just go play in the ghetto.

[Hell Fire]

ok, saying i was undead cleric, i no longer would need the 16% hosps that i usually would be useing, and build 16% GS instead of the hosps, would this help to counter chaining and/or be effective in slowing the chains also, thx for the info. guys is helping me to better understand how the mechanics actually work and i don't mind being in the ghetto as long as the battles are well played and i kinda prefer the challenges it presents :)

also which do you feel is more effective , most people say chaining is best for winning wars, i'm thinking semi chains would work best, esp. in the ghettos, my kdm is doubtful we'll ever have 10 or more provinces on with in the two hr time span for effective chaining strats, i was thinking more along the lines of running teams of 3-5 working together on targets , and to keep attacks spread out more , not concentrating on a single target , allowing the rest a chance to grow stronger.

[Persain]

also which do you feel is more effective , most people say chaining is best for winning wars, i'm thinking semi chains would work best, esp. in the ghettos, my kdm is doubtful we'll ever have 10 or more provinces on with in the two hr time span for effective chaining strats, i was thinking more along the lines of running teams of 3-5 working together on targets , and to keep attacks spread out more , not concentrating on a single target , allowing the rest a chance to grow stronger.

thats another misconception about war, having ALL your attackers attack a single prov to chain from 2000->500 in a single hour is not some magical benefit. As long as your players are smart and your leaders are good you can run succesfull full chains with a war start of 10 players and a steady stream of hitters.

[Madchess]

This was supposed to be about orcs vs undeads I think to many people are out of track there.
As I see it the main Orc advantage is that they can run 100% elites as offenses while the undead will always have some off specs mixed in.
The orcs have an advantage when it comes to chaining and can almost get normal gains from a half chained province.
The orcs also have the better spellbook when it comes to adding offensive bonuses aswell as greater science.
On the other hand the undeads are less vunerable to ambushes and way more durable in a competition when no ones uses chaining.
Undeads have a lot of free space they don't need for farms and hospitals and are more flexible and able to pull of extreame building strategies.
Undeads as opposite to orcs can also do some t/m stuff against opponents, and they are the suiciders best pick.

I would want to leave out numbers and such, but for kingdoms not planning on running one race only I suggest that undeads and orcs can compliment each others very well giving several edges on the opponent. There should be slightly less orcs and their pick should be either War hero or Cleric while the undeads should be Warrior or Tactician, and it might even be worth to have a couple of undead/mercenaries.

[igotnomilk]

^Undead/mercenaries?

How would an undead+orc kd complement each other? One is immune to plague and the other not. The only reason I can think of is that orc will be more sustainable late age because they don't have a science penalty.. otherwise why wouldn't an all undead kd work?

[nooblet]

undead spread plague, orcs and everyone else reap the benefits of plague immediately afterwards. that's the basic idea.
it is contingent on a big if, so with that setup you have to be ready for what happens when plague doesn't connect.

a pure undead kingdom's science penalty and lack of a gains bonus means that they will be outgained by an orc kingdom, and the slight edge undeads have in offensive strength (numerically) fades as science becomes more important. Orcs with reflect magic have some extra protection against being fireballed as well, which becomes a big factor in longer wars.