Plague

[Persain]

Perhaps.....but, orcs that are chained down will have higher gains science on top of their natural +20% compared to chained down undeads. Networth difference will also be a huge factor for land lusting in which case you would need much higher WPA depending on the target. Max pop for undeads would also be much lower when comparing chained orcs and chained undeads due to the science penalty.

all true..yet if your going to make a claim y not look hard numbers. then u have to include things like. undead=constant plague, undead = more likely to be warrior (and get the Same +20% gains via 4 hits*1.2=5 vice 5hits*1=5), orc= off losses>>undead unless cleric. Then look at science really for a chained people they can get gold/food aided and tpa/wpa/be are meh at best

So undead/warrior v orc/clearc you end up comparing plauge to science (1,000 bpa) at 5% pop and 11% gains bonus over the same undead and its non-obvious who will win. For other the pers choices though, 50% reduced losses+plague>>gains+science any day. Given the staying power of an undead and the power of plauge to keep an opponent from growing undead should win those wars..

[FinalFantasyWorld]

Perhaps.....but, orcs that are chained down will have higher gains science on top of their natural +20% compared to chained down undeads. Networth difference will also be a huge factor for land lusting in which case you would need much higher WPA depending on the target. Max pop for undeads would also be much lower when comparing chained orcs and chained undeads due to the science penalty.

Edit: The orc should also have more land incoming.

And the orcs will starve and the undeads wont

[BlazingChicken]

all true..yet if your going to make a claim y not look hard numbers. then u have to include things like. undead=constant plague, undead = more likely to be warrior (and get the Same +20% gains via 4 hits*1.2=5 vice 5hits*1=5), orc= off losses>>undead unless cleric. Then look at science really for a chained people they can get gold/food aided and tpa/wpa/be are meh at best

So undead/warrior v orc/clearc you end up comparing plauge to science (1,000 bpa) at 5% pop and 11% gains bonus over the same undead and its non-obvious who will win. For other the pers choices though, 50% reduced losses+plague>>gains+science any day. Given the staying power of an undead and the power of plauge to keep an opponent from growing undead should win those wars..

Most opted for tacticians on both sides, although there are more warriors on the undead side. Naturally the orcs would (should anyway) chain the tacticians first, unless of course the whole kingdom is warrior.

And the orcs will starve and the undeads wont

That would depend on the overall activity of the kingdom.

[BlazingChicken]

Also take into account that the undeads would be chained deeper. (this difference could probably be covered by land lust though)

[FinalFantasyWorld]

Most opted for tacticians on both sides, although there are more warriors on the undead side. Naturally the orcs would (should anyway) chain the tacticians first, unless of course the whole kingdom is warrior.



That would depend on the overall activity of the kingdom.

Look at it this way, in terms of economy undeads only have to worry about managing one resource, gold. Orcs have to manage two resources. It doesn't take rocket science to know how will an all orc kd fare against an all undead kd

[BlazingChicken]

Look at it this way, in terms of economy undeads only have to worry about managing one resource, gold. Orcs have to manage two resources. It doesn't take rocket science to know how will an all orc kd fare against an all undead kd

The undead side would also need more towers to support land lusting (even more than other races due to weaker channeling science), and doesn't have the free building construction that dwarf does, which is why I say dwarf is the only real contender against orc. Free construction for land lusted acres is a godsend.

[Persain]

Most opted for tacticians on both sides, although there are more warriors on the undead side. Naturally the orcs would (should anyway) chain the tacticians first, unless of course the whole kingdom is warrior.

warrior>tact as far as chain survivability means naturally tacticians are first to go huh.... :D wanna war

Also take into account that the undeads would be chained deeper. (this difference could probably be covered by land lust though)

So your assumption is that undead wouldnt fair as well becasue they would be attacked harder...hrm intersting

The undead side would also need more towers to support land lusting (even more than other races due to weaker channeling science), and doesn't have the free building construction that dwarf does, which is why I say dwarf is the only real contender against orc. Free construction for land lusted acres is a godsend.

Runes=>aid, gold to stay built...at least some aid. Even considering that a dwarf can keep all the buildings "built" vrs just credits (in progress rarelly wil rarely finish) doesnt mean they can survive quad hitting back and forth for a few days. Say 5 day war(120 hours) at least a FEW of those "chained" people will pull off 10 uniques at 7% off losses=48% original off, whereas undead have 70% offense left.

[BlazingChicken]

warrior>tact as far as chain survivability means naturally tacticians are first to go huh.... :D wanna war

Tact would have land coming in faster, but warrior would have more land incoming.

So your assumption is that undead wouldnt fair as well becasue they would be attacked harder...hrm intersting

More overpop.

Runes=>aid, gold to stay built...at least some aid. Even considering that a dwarf can keep all the buildings "built" vrs just credits (in progress rarelly wil rarely finish) doesnt mean they can survive quad hitting back and forth for a few days. Say 5 day war(120 hours) at least a FEW of those "chained" people will pull off 10 uniques at 7% off losses=48% original off, whereas undead have 70% offense left.

Dwarf has higher BE hence more effective hospitals/GS. Chain targets can be weakened by fairy ops prior to chaining if the dwarves' offense aren't high enough. Dwarves would also have better economy, and toss fireballs with spare mana/runes.

[American Badass]

End of the day

Dwarf Sage >>> Undead & Orc.

Long wars, Dwarf will survive economically and with +25% in science, chaining a dwarf will be hard. Especially when you can ambush an Undead /Orc and rebuild them lands instantly. All Dwarf needed back was FOG to be an absolute war machine. Dwarf also has QF to do 2 x unique in war and not need to rely on Rax, so even if chained it's good. With high sci in BE, a Dwarf can also get 3 uniques with 20% Rax.

[nooblet]

plague isn't that big of an asset. it's highly random... you'd need a kingdom stacked with undeads to have a likely chance to put plague on a chain target.

Undead isn't bad, but Orc is better for damage and raising offense during war. Undead is better at retaining its offense, much better defending against a chain, but lacks a lot of the things that make orcs really deadly, and by the end game and at a higher level of the game science becomes a more important factor.

If I had to pick one race for my core I'd pick Orc, save for the core of a low-ranked kingdom that probably can't do a proper chain, in which case race choices are the least of my concerns.

Also Dwarf/Sage is far from >>> any undead or orc. Really, any race personality that is good this age, has it's benefits and downsides... the only picks that come close to being blatantly OP are Orc/Warrior and Undead/Warrior, and they're only OP in war. Dwarf/Sage is just an average personality on a race of averageness - can do a lot of things well enough as long as they don't try to do them all at once, but it's not going to be magically superior to everything by a long shot. Too many people want to oversimplify the game with bs notions of how the game can be reduced to a poorly thought out mathematical strategy, and how their one-page setup will dominate everything it encounters.

We should make a thread for people to wave their e-peens and e-vages over racestuff, seriously. :p

[BlazingChicken]

Dwarf/Sage against orc would be fairly even. But, I bet dwarf/sage would dominate undeads. Undeads will have a very very hard time land lusting out of a chain, since all the dwarves will have fairly high WPA.

[nooblet]

Dwarf/Sage against orc would be fairly even. But, I bet dwarf/sage would dominate undeads. Undeads will have a very very hard time land lusting out of a chain, since all the dwarves will have fairly high WPA.

Never a guarantee that someone's going to have fairly high wpa... even a dwarf.

[BlazingChicken]

Never a guarantee that someone's going to have fairly high wpa... even a dwarf.

True. But, keep in mind that undead has -25% science effectiveness. Making it even harder to land lust. :/
On the other side, dwarf gets +30% spell damage (more reason to pump some wizzies).... and higher BE, which means faster wizzie pumping. So its much more likely for the dwarves to have much higher wpa than the undeads.

Edit: Btw what I consider fairly high for a dwarf would be around 3 raw wpa (by late age that is), so don't start thinking I'm proposing some crazy high amount. :O

[Persain]

Tact would have land coming in faster, but warrior would have more land incoming.

More to consider than just those 2 things even if warrior survives better than a tact gota consider whos the larger threat....and for example

plague isn't that big of an asset. it's highly random... you'd need a kingdom stacked with undeads to have a likely chance to put plague on a chain target.

Naw, plauge is an amazing asset to have when both sides have heavily chained people. 2 people sitting on 400-600 acres and 10k def with 100k offense is the exact case that highlights the power of undeads/plauge. As the undead ends up 4-5 tapping back and forth plauge and lack of offensive losses start to really stack up in favor of undead.

Not saying that a full undead kd would win, only that one of the large perks to undead is when you are hitting/being hit for a total of 8+ hits every 12 hours plague is going to be nearly 100% coverage. And then you look at

Dwarf/Sage against orc would be fairly even. But, I bet dwarf/sage would dominate undeads. Undeads will have a very very hard time land lusting out of a chain, since all the dwarves will have fairly high WPA.

where again i still think undead are going to compete heavily AT THE BOTTOM. No one LLs OUT of a chain, they just LL to mitigate some of the damage. Sure dwarf +30% damage and sage means that the plague is gone, but at the end of the day each sides chains down to about the same acres and while dwarf LL'd with +30 undead LL and might of gotten 1-2 tower watch hits in. should end up about the same.

Then when fighting at the bottom a "full leet" undead army on 600 acres and 1000 bpa pop ends up on 600*25*(~1.15)=17312~14,500 leets
Compared to say a dwarf sage with similar stats on 600 acres as 600*25*(~1.25)=18854~16000 leets.

So after initial chain undead=130,500 raw off compared to the dwarf at 112,000 raw off.
After say even 3 days of war at 2 hits a day undead~105k vrs Dwarf~72.5k.

Sure in this cause plague didnt help as sage countered it but your -off losses means you survive much better than the dwarf.

edit

True. But, keep in mind that undead has -25% science effectiveness. Making it even harder to land lust. :/

If you have any kind of initial wizards its never hard to LL. The -25% science will have less than a .5 mod wpa effect

[BlazingChicken]

where again i still think undead are going to compete heavily AT THE BOTTOM. No one LLs OUT of a chain, they just LL to mitigate some of the damage. Sure dwarf has that, and sage means that the plague is gone, but at the end of the day each sides chains down to about the same acres and while dwarf LL'd with +30 undead LL and might of gotten 1-2 tower watch hits in. should end up about the same.

Stronger GS, more gains science. +30% land lust. Better economy. They will not be competing at the bottom. Say you chain down an undead down to 300. On the other side the dwarf would be more like, 600 thanks to land lust and the GS. Making good use of faery ops to weaken targets prior to chaining would also end up with the dwarf side having much greater gains in early chain waves. Unless you have a bunch of undead warriors.
Also, don't forget, ALL of these dwarves are capable of crippling your economy through fireballs.

If you have any kind of initial wizards its never hard to LL. The -25% science will have less than a .5 mod wpa effect

If you take into account networth difference and the fact that these dwarves are all A/Ms, every bit helps.

More to consider than just those 2 things even if warrior survives better than a tact gota consider whos the larger threat....and for example

That would depend on whether the warrior has enough offense to 5-tap. The tact would also wrack up more credits if it stays at the top.