Plague

[nooblet]

I played in a low ranked, majority-undead kingdom last age, so my observations might not be accurate for good kingdoms, but I've found bad kingdoms neglect to translate Sage's science to better results, and think their impressive numbers will carry their province. With anything opswise, there is a significant random element... especially LL. I don't know why people are pretending that LL is suddenly this massive strategy that will always work.
Undead is resilient against chains more than orc because of their lowered offensive losses, town watch/animate dead, and having the land to build extra guardstations. LL is a minor factor, but it is something that Orcs are restricted from using - unless there is another fakeout from the devs as there was with cleric and undead not having nightstrike. Meh.

Dwarf/Sage vs. a kingdom of Undeads obviously has many things in favor of the Sages. Really depends on the quality of players on the Sages... contrary to the belief of some of the people here, Sage is not a personality for static players to pump science ad infinitum. Against a good kingdom you'll have to make the most of boosted science to be more dynamic, where other personalities are confined to areas they're particularly good at.

At the bottom, I'm going to prefer a Warrior over just about anything, just by virtue of the pentatap, and warrior having far more opportunities to multi-tap and ambush during and after the chain. Also note that Dwarf/Sage is going to be quite easy to ambush without anonymity, so ambushing goes both ways.

[BlazingChicken]

Economy would be how dwarves would win. With all those dwarf sages, fireball potential would be insane. Undeads would need constant aid for wages and soldiers, but would there be enough aid to go around if the dwarves fireball down half the undeads, and chain the other half?

[Persain]

Stronger GS, more gains science. +30% land lust. Better economy. They will not be competing at the bottom. Say you chain down an undead down to 300. On the other side the dwarf would be more like, 600 thanks to land lust and the GS. Making good use of faery ops to weaken targets prior to chaining would also end up with the dwarf side having much greater gains in early chain waves. Unless you have a bunch of undead warriors.

Have you even looked at numbers or do you just spout off concepts. Its not going to be a 300 acre difference due to LL/GS gains. It may take MORE HITS to get the dwarf down (not much will calc), but both races will be hit to the same acres, lets say 300. Then undead LL for 100 acres, dwarf for 130. Lets say both were unlucky had had only ONE hit coming in (bad assumption since the undead is likely to have more acres incoming but lets assume) of 200 acres. that puts undead on 600 acres, dwarf at 630 acres....note (bpa=1000 at 600v630 acres means 600k books/category, if thats in BE/gains/pop/alchemy your are doing well at 2k acres)

At chained size, both will have very little economy, you will rely on kd mates for most of your GC+food. sure undead might need 5k a tick instead of 2k but its low enough gc that your kd should be aiding that stuff around all war, just like food for dwarf.

Now start with BE=>GS 500 BPA mid way though chain
BE= 500 BPA= sqrt (500)*(1*1.25-1*0.75)=15% BE boost over undead. 11% BE race bonus means 1.11*1.15 -->27.8% BE bonus over undead.
So lets say your undead, gonna run 20% GS at 80% BE=25.6% less losses. Now dwarf 20% GS at 112.25 BE=34.5%.
base land lost =12%.
Undead Dropping from 2k acres 300=2000*(1-.12*(1-.256))^x=>20 hits
Dwarf Dropping from 2k acres 300=2000*(1-.12*(1-.345))^x=>23 hits

~3 extra hits....any kd that can chain will do those hits, they dont just do 20 hits and stop.


Gains=1000 BPA= sqrt (1000)*(1.4*1.25-1.4*0.75)=23% gains over undead...decent but not crushing.

Then there's pop.
Pop Dwarf=1000 BPA= sqrt (1000)*(0.65*1.25)=(0.257...+1)*630*25=19769
Pop Undead=1000 BPA= sqrt (1000)*(0.65*755)=(0.154...+1)*600*25=17312.

pull out 2500 for wiz/thieve/peasent/def
dwarf=120,883 off...6 uniques=78,210
undead=133,308 off..6 uniques=107,651

again not saying dwarf<undead kd wide, not arguing for any specfic kd strategy. But the advantage of undead is living in a chain, plague is where that shines the most as it keeps your enemy from recovering. And even compared to a dwarf the undead WINS the fight at the bottom.

If you take into account networth difference and the fact that these dwarves are all A/Ms, every bit helps.

undead have higher nw leet....will even out or be in undeads favor

[BlazingChicken]

Even if an undead and dwarf were both chained to the bottom with the same acres they would both be able to quad tap each other (assuming they don't have much defense left), but in the short term the dwarf would come out on top, due to the difference in gains science and BE. The undead would eventually be able to outlast dwarf, but by that point the dwarves would already have won by virtue of economy (fireballs).

Now start with BE=>GS 500 BPA mid way though chain
BE= 500 BPA= sqrt (500)*(1*1.25-1*0.75)=15% BE boost over undead. 11% BE race bonus means 1.11*1.15 -->27.8% BE bonus over undead.
So lets say your undead, gonna run 20% GS at 80% BE=25.6% less losses. Now dwarf 20% GS at 112.25 BE=34.5%.
base land lost =12%.
Undead Dropping from 2k acres 300=2000*(1-.12*(1-.256))^x=>20 hits
Dwarf Dropping from 2k acres 300=2000*(1-.12*(1-.345))^x=>23 hits

~3 extra hits....any kd that can chain will do those hits, they dont just do 20 hits and stop.

That is under the assumption that the dwarves are not doing extra hits as well.

Lets say both were unlucky had had only ONE hit coming in (bad assumption since the undead is likely to have more acres incoming but lets assume) of 200 acres.

Dwarves have higher gains science. I already mentioned weakening the targets using faeries didn't I? So its quite possible for the starting dwarf for a chain to quad tap and as such have more land incoming than the undead.

[Persain]

Economy would be how dwarves would win. With all those dwarf sages, fireball potential would be insane. Undeads would need constant aid for wages and soldiers, but would there be enough aid to go around if the dwarves fireball down half the undeads, and chain the other half?

Economy is won at the mid-top, not at the bottom. Undeads win all chain fights at the bottom. Theres is simply not enough enconomy that occurs when =constantly fluctuating between 300-700 during a chaining battle to have an impact on the war without aid. Thats not to say dwarfs cant compete, look at the top few kds in the game right now mostly dwarfs, they'll do well becasue they'll spend half the age pumping science to 8-9-10 million books sitting at 30% draft. For the rest of the 250+ kds its about balance in your kd if you simply went 20+ dwarfs/sage your not going to find any wars late age if u have decent science and are going to get crushed early age when you have none....Simple fact is unless you have 5000+ bpa/acre eventually the undead will wear out dwarfs quad tapping back and forth. So as long as you stay within 50% nw of your enemy when that roles around your undead start to recover, dwarfs...not so much.

At the bottom, I'm going to prefer a Warrior over just about anything, just by virtue of the pentatap, and warrior having far more opportunities to multi-tap and ambush during and after the chain. Also note that Dwarf/Sage is going to be quite easy to ambush without anonymity, so ambushing goes both ways.

indeed...gotta like the extra general could arguably be the single strongest bonus in the game.

[BlazingChicken]

Economy is won at the mid-top, not at the bottom. Undeads win all chain fights at the bottom. Theres is simply not enough enconomy that occurs when =constantly fluctuating between 300-700 during a chaining battle to have an impact on the war without aid. Thats not to say dwarfs cant compete, look at the top few kds in the game right now mostly dwarfs, they'll do well becasue they'll spend half the age pumping science to 8-9-10 million books sitting at 30% draft. For the rest of the 250+ kds its about balance in your kd if you simply went 20+ dwarfs/sage your not going to find any wars late age if u have decent science and are going to get crushed early age when you have none....Simple fact is unless you have 5000+ bpa/acre eventually the undead will wear out dwarfs quad tapping back and forth. So as long as you stay within 50% nw of your enemy when that roles around your undead start to recover, dwarfs...not so much.

Getting that much science isn't efficient networth wise. :/
It's not like dwarf/sages can't hit around with learn attacks. In fact, they should, since they have learn protection.

[Persain]

Even if an undead and dwarf were both chained to the bottom with the same acres they would both be able to quad tap each other (assuming they don't have much defense left), but in the short term the dwarf would come out on top, due to the difference in gains science and BE.

Have you ever fought in war/know math. sure your gain % is bigger but its on smaller and smaller land. eventually if we did this forever you'd even out only slightly ahead in acres.. ie you hold around 550 acres to my 450 acres.

But as we both have zero/little defense it doesnt matter what acres we even out at what matters its who runs out of offense first. When that happens you become worthless to your kd. I've been in wars where we had 6-7 people in the other kd at zero def even with constant pounding from your top hitters and ambushing from your lower hitters, its almost impossible to take someone fully out of war if they can hold onto 100k mod off. all you can do is wait till they drop to about 50k off and then re-aid up your own chained people as they turtle on 10k+ leets...makes things alot harder if those 10k+ leets are plagued and your an orc so 10k leets=17k def.
.

The undead would eventually be able to outlast dwarf, but by that point the dwarves would already have won by virtue of economy (fireballs).

your not sitting at 500 acres fire balling..1 u wont have runes 2. the people u want to fireball are WAY to large in nw. sure a your "big" dwarfs might be have fire balled a bit but there's no reason to assume dwarf wpa>undead wpa. And if you DID then the dwarfs are full hybrid and have even worse opa.

That is under the assumption that the dwarves are not doing extra hits as well.

its under the assumption you hit as many times as it takes to finish a chain...and i point to

Dwarves have higher gains science. I already mentioned weakening the targets using faeries didn't I? So its quite possible for the starting dwarf for a chain to quad tap.

the 20 v 23 hits might go to what then 20 v 25...still going to happen, and y wouldn't undead have that same thing ie support from fearies...lets see dwarfs who hit 70 opa but fireball, or undeads who hit 120 opa...with the same support from fearies undeads should hit more often/unique and chain faster.

Getting that much science isn't efficient networth wise. :/
It's not like dwarf/sages can't hit around with learn attacks. In fact, they should, since they have learn protection.

NW effect trails off around 5000+ bpa... the only kds that can manage that are kds like rage/fury...top 10 kds who pump to 1000 bpa on 5000 acres then get chained to 500 acre. Thats my point though unless your bpa is that high you arent gonna be able to win a 500 acre all leet battle with an undead as a dwarf.

[BlazingChicken]

70 OPA? Are you joking? They're sages and they have clear sight + the best watchtowers. They should have at least 100 OPA entering war.

[Persain]

70 OPA? Are you joking? They're sages and they have clear sight + the best watchtowers. They should have at least 100 OPA entering war.

point being that your going to have less offence than an undead.
Dwarf at 11 leets per acre*7*1.3= 100 opa...
Undead 10 leets per acre*1.3=117 opa.
Undead/warrior 10 leets/acre*1.3*1.18=138 opa

its enough to make the hits from chains even out given same support.

edit...and before you say it. dwarf isnt going to have enough extra pop from science to justify more than 1 extra leet/acre

[BlazingChicken]

point being that your going to have less offence than an undead.
Dwarf at 11 leets per acre*7*1.3= 100 opa...
Undead 10 leets per acre*1.3=117 opa.
Undead/warrior 10 leets/acre*1.3*1.18=138 opa

its enough to make the hits from chains even out given same support.

Dwarves will have higher WPA + clearsight. The faeries on the dwarf side will have a lot more mana/stealth to spare compared to the undead side.

[Persain]

Dwarves will have higher WPA + clearsight. The faeries on the dwarf side will have a lot more mana/stealth to spare compared to the undead side.

Lol really....1 cast of MV Clearsight is gone so thats 3 mana you cost me. ooooh nooo, and high enough wpa to slow down a feary AT ALL, is gonna mean running 4-5+ raw wpa.

Lets see my base was dwarf 11 leets 2 wpa v undead 10 leets 1.5 wpa, lets up the dwarf wpa, 8.5 leets 4.5 wpa, 10 leets 1.5 wpa. now were back to 77 opa dwarf v 120 opa undead...hrm

[BlazingChicken]

Lol really....1 cast of MV Clearsight is gone so thats 3 mana you cost me. ooooh nooo, and high enough wpa to slow down a feary AT ALL, is gonna mean running 4-5+ raw wpa.

Lets see my base was dwarf 11 leets 2 wpa v undead 10 leets 1.5 wpa, lets up the dwarf wpa, 8.5 leets 4.5 wpa, 10 leets 1.5 wpa. now were back to 77 opa dwarf v 120 opa undead...hrm

MV is 50% chance of success so that is not just 3% mana. Dwarves have stronger WTs (so it would still be quite effective after you MV clearsight off) and TGs, so the offense difference is a little closer than what you wrote before. Dwarf sages should be able to pull off 8+ mod wpa with around 3 raw WPA depending on science.

Edit: Forgot to mention, honor. The dwarves will reach higher ranks than your undeads since they toss around fireballs and all.

Also, dont forget about the libraries the dwarves will be running (again depending on science so I won't get into that).

Also, keep in mind. The faeries this age are mystics. Not sages. They will not have as high mod WPA as last age, as such they're bound to have quite a few failed spells on these dwarf sages.

[Persain]

Also, keep in mind.

All valid points less the honor...if your hitting/being hit your loosing honor. You're still overestimating things for example 8+ mod on 3 raw is an insane amount of science. your talking about 2000+ bpa.

[BlazingChicken]

All valid points less the honor...if your hitting/being hit your loosing honor. You're still overestimating things for example 8+ mod on 3 raw is an insane amount of science. your talking about 2000+ bpa.

Well, it would depend on libraries, and the way the science is allocated.
Science should be easy to get as a sage mid-age, by hitting all those faery mystics this age. Since, they won't have much science protection....probably.

[Persain]

Well, it would depend on libraries, and the way the science is allocated.
Science should be easy to get as a sage mid-age, by hitting all those faery mystics this age. Since, they won't have much science protection....probably.

good luck with that especially as a dwarf feary=unbrekable