Target Finder

[Bijo]

You have already lost your argument with this line.

The seconds it starts scanning the kingdom pages it is automation. the user is not clicking anything, your script is doing it in the background. AUTOMATICALLY

(notice that that word contains "automat" as in "automation")

Good day to you too sir!

it's written hypocrisy all over the place!



[11:59] <Ang|Work> well all kd pages
[11:59] <Isaac> yep
[11:59] <Ang|Work> not actual provinces
[11:59] <Isaac> i mean all provs
[11:59] <Ang|Work> but yea
[12:00] <baka|BiO> okay ang
[12:00] <Ang|Work> as in cb's?
[12:00] <Isaac> nope
[12:00] <baka|BiO> make your **** work
[12:00] <baka|BiO> for iphone
[12:00] <Ang|Work> lol
[12:00] <baka|BiO> some app or some ****
[12:00] <Ang|Work> wouldnt that be magical?
[12:00] <Ang|Work> :p
[12:00] <baka|BiO> do it
[12:00] <baka|BiO> i'll donate
[12:00] <Ang|Work> isaac i wrote a greasemonkey script in 5 minutes to scan and post all kd pages
[12:01] <Ang|Work> searchable through php

[Angelus]

LOL, i did write one once, and?
Im not here promoting it, and trying to justify it.
Does not mean i am doing it now, or trying to justify it.

Also quoting IRC logs in the forum to "back up your argument" only works if it does back up your argument. (its also quite lame)

[Bishop]

how can you say that???

its not automation process that send info to the server in the end

its a totaly diff thing that can lower the usage on the server

the list of the XLS that i am posting and the mini scans ppl will do cant hurt the server at all lol

why are you referring to it as "automation" when in fact we/you are worried about server usage

alot of tools are using automation to filer data from a loading page : angel utools etc

its not about automation at all its about loting alot of pages at once

but thats the thing ... its not loading them all in one

but i am gussing its not about that at all

its just you want to tell me NO! and thats it!

or somthing like that

its not about if i am right about the usage or not at all

and if thats the case then their is no point to keep on talking about that


good day!

You are automatically submitting page requests. Thats not allowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4

[DHaran]

Bijo how can you possibly still not understand this after it has been explained to you about 100 times?

[Persain]

You are automatically submitting page requests. Thats not allowed.

The only difference is that the game turns a blind eye to the target finder because its a valuable tool to the game. Just because its not allowed doesnt mean bishop finds the guy running it and deletes him....remember the rules state "Under no circumstances may you use automation software, hacks, mods,scripts or any unauthorized third-party tools designed to improve your performance in Utopia. "

As it stands something like targetfinder.eu must be scanning the entire game every hour. Thats ALOT of page requests, but by not deleting the guy running it he is backhandedly authorizing the tool

[Landro]

Somebody is running a game account that gathers information and that account would be subject to deletion.

I think Bishop has made it pretty clear what isn't allowed and he's the guy deleting offending provinces.

[csarmi]

So WTF Bijo cheats AND has the gall to advertise it in topic and when he is told he continues arguing? WTF is wrong with people?

[Persain]

Somebody is running a game account that gathers information and that account would be subject to deletion.

I think Bishop has made it pretty clear what isn't allowed and he's the guy deleting offending provinces.

No i think the point is that while its technically cheating to do this, the fact that bishop doesn't delete the account means either
1 he cant detect it, seems hard for an account like target finder that must scan every hour.
2 he approves of this for a community based website, but not for individuals....I for instance haven't her him say that USING targetfinder.eu is against the rules, yet generating it would be...seems strange

see the rules

Under no circumstances may you use automation software, hacks, mods, scripts or any unauthorized third-party tools designed to improve your performance in Utopia.

angel falls into this but is authorized, targetfinder falls into illegal this but has existed for ages without tehcnically being "authorized" All Third party-tools that have no server interaction are apparently approved or bots/pimp... would be illegal.
Quesstion then comes in as what is allowed and

So WTF Bijo cheats AND has the gall to advertise it in topic and when he is told he continues arguing? WTF is wrong with people?

all this kind of stuff has always been in the "gray" area, these kind of scanning tools have been available for years, and i've never herd of people getting deleted for using them unless they setup a script that auto runs them every X hours/min seconds. The fact its technically not allowed, but has been in the game for year and Bijo assumes its fine just shows the inconsistencies with which the rules are enforced. Point of note, if u do anything with code, dont advertise. Theres a reason alot of kds have their own bots/intell/scanners because advertising them may mean deletion, unless historically you are a "reputable" site sharing any intell with the entire community

[DHaran]

Angel doesn't interact with the server on any level, so no it doesn't even remotely fall into that description. And there is no gray area, any automation on the Utopia side is against the rules.

[Persain]

Angel doesn't interact with the server on any level, so no it doesn't even remotely fall into that description. And there is no gray area, any automation on the Utopia side is against the rules.

Indeed, angel doesnt interact with the server, yet the rules do not SAY no interaction with the server bishop does. The Rules say ANY "unauthorized third-party tools designed to improve your performance in Utopia" . If bishop wanted to call angel unauthorized it would be in violation of the rules as listed. Heck even IRC is a thrid party tool that vastly improves my performance in utopia.

Perfect example was when bishop said utopia-moby was illegal and in essence all it did was re-format the web page. If reformatting a web page is "server" interaction as it "improve your performance in Utopia" when using a cellphone then just about anything that the current moderator doesn't like is cause for deletion.

And that's y scanners are a gray area, bishop has said that the type of interaction they provide is NOT legal yet no waves of deletions have occurred and they have existed for many ages and been available on seemingly approved websites such as targetfinder, dragon portal, Utopia temple( years ago) and so on. Otherwise we need to ask specifically which sites are allowed to be used, ie if i post a link to targetfinder.eu am i useing a 3rd party program that gets its information illegally. If so is use of the tool illegal or just the generation of such a tool (ie the account that got the info). As well if he ever left we'd need re-classification of every tool/bot/program that is used as legal or not. "server" interaction is inherently vague, and to define what one can use is a gray area. Either stick with angel/pimp/irc (targetfinder for looking at wars only) or be prepared to interact with bishop.

[DHaran]

Angel is authorized because it doesn't interact with the server, as any third-party tool would be authorized that doesn't break any rules. The rule states very clearly "under no circumstances may you use automation". There is no gray area. Whether or not it can be prevented or acted upon is irrelevant.

[Persain]

Angel is authorized because it doesn't interact with the server, as any third-party tool would be authorized that doesn't break any rules. The rule states very clearly "under no circumstances may you use automation". There is no gray area. Whether or not it can be prevented or acted upon is irrelevant.

Exactly angel is an "approved" tool for some magical reason that is up the the whim of bishop becasue doesnt "interact" NOT per the STATED rules (heck forum agent USES automation to send your self copied intell, yet thats not banned). Likewise some program that would shell the way utopia is displayed would be illegal because it reformats the web page into a more readable form. Thing is though communal target finders appears to be "approved" or the prov who runs it would be deleted. (In the case of targetfinder.eu i can even tell u what island its created is located on as he scanned utopia oop). And Target finders have been in utopia since well before bishop became mod, i remember utopia temple had the exact same thing back in 2005 (before its coder quit) as i used it in genesis to find inactives. Thing is though those things USE automation to generate its data set. If that's a legal thing than the use of privately generating a lists seems legal (gray :P), or Bijo wouldn't have talked about the dragon portal tool. The fact is if the rules were clear as per

You are automatically submitting page requests. Thats not allowed.

then bishop should specifically aim to remove the guy who runs and "ban the use" of targetfinder.eu.

[Bishop]

Temple didn't use automation though - users populated the data manually. We have removed people that hammer the server with requests for their target finders btw.

Angel is fully client side so we don't care about it really.

[DHaran]

Exactly angel is an "approved" tool for some magical reason that is up the the whim of bishop becasue doesnt "interact" NOT per the STATED rules (heck forum agent USES automation to send your self copied intell, yet thats not banned). Likewise some program that would shell the way utopia is displayed would be illegal because it reformats the web page into a more readable form. Thing is though communal target finders appears to be "approved" or the prov who runs it would be deleted. (In the case of targetfinder.eu i can even tell u what island its created is located on as he scanned utopia oop). And Target finders have been in utopia since well before bishop became mod, i remember utopia temple had the exact same thing back in 2005 (before its coder quit) as i used it in genesis to find inactives. Thing is though those things USE automation to generate its data set. If that's a legal thing than the use of privately generating a lists seems legal (gray :P), or Bijo wouldn't have talked about the dragon portal tool. The fact is if the rules were clear as per
then bishop should specifically aim to remove the guy who runs and "ban the use" of targetfinder.eu.

The rules DO state no interaction with the server, because automation = interaction, ie a script doing something in place of the player. Automation between Angel and Pimp (agents) has nothing to do with the rules of Utopia. You have to copy from the game into Angel, there is no automation there. Page formatters don't request info from the server, they just alter the display of existing information, no automation. Target finders that scan the server are illegal, period. How long they've been used and who gets deleted is irrelevant, it's against the rules. There are many players out there who xlog and multi, just because they don't get deleted doesn't mean it's not against the rules. The reasons aren't up the "whims" of Bishop, they're up to the rules in place which he enforces.

[Persain]

The rules DO state no interaction with the server, because automation = interaction, ie a script doing something in place of the player. Automation between Angel and Pimp (agents) has nothing to do with the rules of Utopia. You have to copy from the game into Angel, there is no automation there. Page formatters don't request info from the server, they just alter the display of existing information, no automation. Target finders that scan the server are illegal, period. How long they've been used and who gets deleted is irrelevant, it's against the rules. There are many players out there who xlog and multi, just because they don't get deleted doesn't mean it's not against the rules. The reasons aren't up the "whims" of Bishop, they're up to the rules in place which he enforces.

The game rules state

Under no circumstances may you use automation software, hacks, mods, scripts or any unauthorized third-party tools designed to improve your performance in Utopia.

That means that the follwing are banned.
automation (angel=> pimp is an automation)
Sofware (angel)
Hacks
Mod (re-formatters
Script (targetfinders)
3rd party tool (dragon portall ultima stuff, pimp)


But as bishop said

Angel is fully client side so we don't care about it really.

those rules aren't technically correct.

And my point gets to there being a gray issue as

We have removed people that hammer the server with requests for their target finders btw.

i dont think its possible to claim to have done that and not have deleted people like myself who hand copied the data from the kd pages into excel...and got really good at it...btw i'll be pissed if i got deleted, i saw targetfinder down and genreated a list by hand this age...sux, but u can do all the kds in about 3-4 min on your 10'th/11th try. and then i have a list for my kd :P