Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35

Thread: How did the European Union become such a messed up democracy

  1. #1
    Post Demon
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,404

    How did the European Union become such a messed up democracy

    The basics of European democracy as I see it is that the people has the right to vote for whoever they want in charge and if that does not work out they vote for changes even so often as it is needed.
    However recent elections in Greece, in France shows more and more tendencies that the peoples voice means nothing to the bureacracy and lobbyists of the EU who will stop at no means to force their desired politic trougth. We just got a new monetary treaty that has so far seen no elections, althougth a single country Ireland will ask it's people as in accordance to their constitution, and if the people vote no the EU will make them vote again and again until it becomes yes just like with the Lissabon treaty.
    The monetary treaty enforces a specific ecconomically politic no matter if the governement in a country is red, blue, black or gray, from now on and until no set end date, yet this treaty is a continuation of the failed monetary politic of the past decade and written by the same people who was responsible for the banking crisis in the first place.
    The directly elected parlament can not suggest laws, only the commission that is to say the bureaucrats and lobbyists have that right, and the system is so confusing that hardly a lot of the elected parlament members knows who is really makeing the suggestions, in addition no small or mid sized country has the oppotunity to veto anything comming from the European Union anymore.

    So let's get back tho the topic, the above is of course my point of view of the EU, how did it become so sidetracked and messed up democracy and why are the EU politicians trying to force feed it's member states with EU nationalism by hijacking national symbols of the diffrent countries and use them directly as EU symbols or in combination with EU symbols, why does EU try to write a common European history that never once existed after the fall of the Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Empire?

  2. #2
    Post Demon
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,404
    Well just thougth the other tread was a bit sidetracked on the US love or hate, that is hard to debate diffrent points of views when you are either for or against it, this I made because I want to discuss what people think of the EU and how they would define a well functioning democracy.

  3. #3
    Dear Friend Korp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    8,837
    However recent elections in Greece, in France shows more and more tendencies that the peoples voice means nothing to the bureacracy and lobbyists of the EU who will stop at no means to force their desired politic trougth.
    I think the elections in Greece shows that the people voices means something even in this case was bad. Or do you want to claim that lobbyist of the EU wanted those Neo nazis to be voted in?

    They want a United State of Europa thats why the act like they do.

  4. #4
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    noyb
    Posts
    2,500
    you know I voted against the EU constitution

    I see it as inherently wrong to allow Spanish fishermen to fish for young eels when that's endangering the species and at the same time ruining our own fishing industry in the netherlands.

    Milk quota and the kind of subsidies that go with it are economically unsound. It's pareto inefficient.

    And they want me to ratify that kind of bull****? No way!

    But despite an overwhelming majority in both the Netherlands and France voting against the treaty, our own parliament voted in favor of the EU constitution. Now is that a EU problem or a national problem?
    Last edited by freemehul; 23-05-2012 at 07:01.
    Corruption is a serious impediment to civil liberties.

  5. #5
    Post Demon
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    you know I voted against the EU constitution

    I see it as inherently wrong to allow Spanish fishermen to fish for young eels when that's endangering the species and at the same time ruining our own fishing industry in the netherlands.

    Milk quota and the kind of subsidies that go with it are economically unsound. It's pareto inefficient.

    And they want me to ratify that kind of bull****? No way!

    But despite an overwhelming majority in both the Netherlands and France voting against the treaty, our own parliament voted in favor of the EU constitution. Now is that a EU problem or a national problem?
    That's the problem with "big" agglomerations isn't it? (and the reason why there are so few)

    The bigger the land a governing body rules, the greater the number of minorities on various issues.

    Unless you can properly decentralize powers so that various regions can individually manage issues that they disagree on while managing together issues that they can agree on, your country/union/empire will splinter into smaller components as most will resent having to come up with a "compromise" that nobody really wants.

    Unfortunately, with our environmental problems, impending resource shortage problems (peak oil being the tip of the iceberg) and the laissez-faire capitalism that globalization has become, we need a more centralized world-wide governing body more than ever (at least on matters that are of world-wide interest).
    Last edited by Magn; 23-05-2012 at 11:08.

  6. #6
    Forum Fanatic
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,894
    It was always going to fail. Should never have had a single currency and one interest rate as they were always going to favor the likes of Germany and France when setting the Interest rate and countries like Greece / Italy / Spain and Portugal were always going to suffer.

  7. #7
    Mediator goodz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,762
    Why would you let countries like greece italy spain and portugal in. Not to mention romania.
    My life is better then yours.

  8. #8
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    noyb
    Posts
    2,500
    a single currency can work, it's actually beneficial, but it doesn't work with a laissez-faire attitude
    Corruption is a serious impediment to civil liberties.

  9. #9
    Post Demon
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    a single currency can work, it's actually beneficial, but it doesn't work with a laissez-faire attitude
    Yeah, pretty much. A currency needs stability to hold any weight.

    You need stronger regulations one way or another: Either on how countries who are in are managed or on which countries you let in.

    The former is a more stable solution, because sometimes, it's hard to control who you get in bed with. A country that looks good now might implode 20 years later.

    Politics can shift so much and unfortunately both sides of the political spectrum can bankrupt a nation if left unchecked.

    Social democrats tend to let innefficient opaque government programs run amock.

    Meanwhile, conservatives tend let an unregulated market destroy itself while infrastructure goes in decline because nobody are paying the taxes they should be paying and the government is flushing money down the toilet on issues only conservatives care about (intolerance both international and domestic, ridiculously high prison sentences with no rehabilitation, ridiculously high military spending, etc).
    Last edited by Magn; 26-05-2012 at 11:24.

  10. #10
    Newbie
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    7
    both the EU and the euro will survive and come out of the crisis stronger and more united with time just as the US came out of their civil war much stronger.

  11. #11
    Post Demon
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,404
    if the peoples voice means something you should be able to get changes when you vote for changes, not just getting a new leader to run the exact same politic.

    Part of the problem is the euro since it is to strong a currency for some of the countries and to weak a currency for other countries, in effect the countries for which it is to strong a currency keeps loosing as whatever they produces becomes to expensive and the countries for which it is to weak a currency win all the time as they can sell their products much cheaper than without the euro. Without the euro no european countries except for maybee Greece would be treathened with bankrupt.

  12. #12
    Post Demon
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    1,496
    Quote Originally Posted by Madchess View Post
    if the peoples voice means something you should be able to get changes when you vote for changes, not just getting a new leader to run the exact same politic.

    Part of the problem is the euro since it is to strong a currency for some of the countries and to weak a currency for other countries, in effect the countries for which it is to strong a currency keeps loosing as whatever they produces becomes to expensive and the countries for which it is to weak a currency win all the time as they can sell their products much cheaper than without the euro. Without the euro no european countries except for maybee Greece would be treathened with bankrupt.
    A strong currency is bad for exports, but great for imports.

    The only reason why it's bad nowadays is because with globalisation, economies are very interdependant so it's hard to survive without exports.

    However, I don't know many countries that would want to see their currency diluted too much.

    Nobody wants to pay an arm and a leg for imports.

  13. #13
    Post Demon
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,404
    That is not true, most imported stuff in EU is luxory goods and foodstuff that only grows outside europe, EU in itself also put heavy taxes on things produced outside Europe, supposedly to protect european industries.

    The european countries in genneral is not dependent on import all that much but on export. A weak currency means you probably can afford a less expensive forreign car and might have to save up longer before gooing on vacation overseas, but you get more monney for your products, a strong currency means you get less monney for your products and that you lose in the competition against other countries and faces mass unemployment if your compagnies are bankrupt.
    Atm for the euro zone the unemployment is like 10-12% in one end there are countries like Austria, Germany and Finland with less than half of the avage unemployment where countries like Latvia, Greece and Spain who the euro construction gave a much stronger currency are in the other end, those countries have a unemployment rate twice as high as the avage, and because they can't devaluate and are forced to follow whatever policy the EU tells them, regardless of peoples wishes it is gooing to get even higher before it tops.

    Look at a country like Iceland, their entire banking sector went bankrupt over night, they've had some hard years after beeing forced to devaluate, but have more or less mannaged, ok so they are not back in the same shape as before it happened, but things are beginning to brigthen in the horizon, where it looks like a loop for Greece and Spain and many other european countries because they simply don't have the same options as Iceland.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    27
    Some good comments in here. Now time to add mine.

    There was a time Europeans could vote problems out. They did so often. The EU made a new politician that could not be voted out, was an agent for change that people resent.

    The inability to vote on issues anymore is part of the frustration.

    The Euro ties to tightly as well preventing normal deviations. While a low currency helps Germany so the lowering of the Euro may be a good thing... it is to soon to know if this can help stop other nations such as Ireland, Italy, Spain, and Portugal from going under. Heck Germany may need to save France and that would mean there was nothing else that could be done.

    Honestly I think parts of the EU were good in concept, but poor in function and the Euro was a disaster. Better to hav e formed four currencies for different economies. This would have allowed Germany, France, England, and a few others into one, Italy, Greece, and others in another. Developing countries in a third, and former Eastern Bloc nations into a fourth.



    Btw I noticed the peak oil comment. I shall have to address oil sooner than I thought.

  15. #15
    Forum Fanatic
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,894
    They needed to help out Greece / Ireland / Portugal / Italy earlier. The interest rate was suited for Germany / France which is WRONG. A far more prosperous country should have taken the fall on Interest rate to help out the struggling countries. I also feel the EU has grown to quickly for its own good. Should have been a maximum of 2 countries a year being allowed to enter with a vote from current members and in time it would of been stable.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •