Avian

[JAZZE]

just ask orc --- -75% Sabotage Damage
yeh i really want some of whatever it is these devs r smokin

[Landro]

just ask orc --- -75% Sabotage Damage
yeh i really want some of whatever it is these devs r smokin

About a quarter of the server plays Orc. I doubt they'd do so if they though this would cripple Orcs.

[LukYspDe]

- 15% attack time
- 35% attack time on bounce
+40% Sabotage damage

- 10% attack gains
No Access to Stables

it could give them a specific role when bounces are needed? perhaps.. just a thought. not sure how harshly bounce waves could be abused.

[Persain]

Keeping in mind that current needs to tweak
orc a bit strong, maybe hit leet/gains
undead a bit strong early, weak late could use a boost to science if u hit leet
feary a bit to honor dependent (half honor bonus would make them easier to balance at all levels)

you end up with

Undead=A -Low science
Orc= Attacker, hard hitter -no t/m
Human=bank/a/t/m
Feary=t/m
elf=a/M
dwarf=A/m
halfing a/T
avain A/t

To keep that in line means if avains need a boost we should tweak the A part of Avain, Consider then

Speedy attacker tends to fall into two categories as a whole:

Either it's good enough and defaults to being the "obvious" choice for the age
or
It's not, and falls into the unpopular range where everyone complains that it's too under powered.

instead of requiring super activity and "insane speed" y not just give them a small speed tweak and then + gains, its been done in the past.

+30% gains instead of -10% would even them out a bit if you add in no access to dungeons and say -10% attack speed instead of 25%. Maybe you have a proper A/t.

Hits "hard" and "fast" but is weak leet so they get the attacker part of A/t. Different concept to the dwarf who TANKS with BE/Leet turtle to make them A/m. Gives you the same goal though.

[John Snowstorm]

I want a speedy attacker that falls apart without significant counter measures. speed boost and a +losses penalty and no ambush protect. lol.

[teckghee1990]

Avians
Bonuses:
* -25% attack times
* -75% thief losses

Penalty:
* No access to stables
* -10% attack gains

Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Griffins (5/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Harpies (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Drake (8/2, $800, 7 nw)
* Spell book: Town Watch, Vermin, Mystic Aura

Imo lower thief losses would be a good and suitable bonus for a hybrid a/t, and it fits avian's ability to fly and escape capture too. I switched the elite strength to 8 but increased its cost and nw to tweak it up a little.

[Mordrek]

About a quarter of the server plays Orc. I doubt they'd do so if they though this would cripple Orcs.

It would only cripple the orcs if you reduced the racial gain modifier for them, since a chained orc at war cannot LL so they have to rely on huge incoming land every wave :P

More OT: If you're looking on basic roles to find then we tend to land on 3 A/T's being humans, avians and halfers. One of them, halfers, tend to be the a/T who earlier (except last age) relied on racial tpa modifiers to be able to have both necessary tpa and enough troops given the troops stats. Meanwhile humans and avians have taken the A/t part, where I feel humans should have the stronger troops hence hit harder while avians are the swift race who rely more on speed than QT's.

Now, to strengthen avians one have to look at humans as well while looking at how much OP/NW they can turn around during 24 hours of fighting. You have also to look at "how" they work, their story and what they demand from the players.

Avians
Bonuses:
* -30% attack times
* Immune to ambush
* +1 offensive specialist
* +40% instant thief ops damage

Penalty:
* No access to stables
* -20% attack gains
* +20% losses

Other Information:
* Offensive Specialist: Griffins (6/0)
* Defensive Specialist: Harpies (0/5)
* Elite Unit: Drake (8/2, $800, 7 nw)
* Spell book: Town Watch, Mystic Aura, Tree of Gold

-30% attack times should make it so that avians can ambush and do a regular hit during the time the enemy makes one set of normal attacks. To counter this the avians should have greatly nerfed gains (my suggestion is -20%). However, birds die in masses hence you will have huge losses combined with this but... they live in trees, and with ToG + a decent ospec which they can spend creds on their offense should be retrainable if they handle things right.

However, I bet I missed some major point here :P

Anyway, this avian could rival orcs when it comes to being annoying in war since they're going to be really hard to chain. However, as a war progresses their speed may remain but their offense will melt away which will require different tactics. The high value on the leets offense is there to balance out that they have no inherent modifiers to tpa thus giving them several interesting strategic decisions in terms of personality and builds.

But, this only works if you poke around and rebuild humans as an economic powerhouse with strong leets (maybe 8/5) and an income modifier.

[LukYspDe]

-20% gains w/+20% losses would add up to an extremely poor attacker in a war lasting longer than min time forcing all avians to be clerics. keep it at -10% gains no extra losses.

But, this only works if you poke around and rebuild humans as an economic powerhouse with strong leets (maybe 8/5) and an income modifier.

I'll have what you're smoking.

edit: i like the * Immune to ambush * +1 offensive specialist, that would be a solid boost on the current avian form and keep them at -25% attack time so they're not too OP

[goodz]

From my recommended changes:

Avian:
-25% attack time
+175% birth rates
+30% thievery damage

+25% losses

7/4 - 650gc

Town watch, invisibility, mystic aura, vermin.

Increased birth rates and a fairly affordable elite but the race will burn out in a long war. Probably best suited to a cleric or tactician depending on how active you want to be but 7 hour attack times is fun :). Could also work as a rogue but would be a bit too glass cannon imo. A lot of noobs underestimate the BR bonus because they have never played against a race with a huge BR bonus. Avian used to have it and it actually make them last a lot better then you would think on paper.

[LukYspDe]

+25% losses is way too high.

+175% birth rates does attempt to fix high losses a bit, but after you've been FBd to 1k peseants or less, with L&P it will take you 9h to double your peasant count (w/o MS, chastity, storms, draft, wizard training, more ops) so i don't think it will account for the +25% losses in war, unless they go cleric.

i see you edited in what i was pointing out.

[Mordrek]

So why not leave the idea as avians as a/t's and switch around a tad? Avians as a/m's and dwarves as a/t's...

...then you'll land on something like:

Avian:
-25% attack time
+175% birth rates
+30% magic damage (instant spells)

+25% losses

7/3 - 650gc

Town watch, invisibility, vermin, Fools Gold, Clearsight

Then the threat from FB get's lower hence the ability to replace losses increase and gives avians a chance in a longer war :) meanwhile dwarves can start to hate magic again...

Dwarves
* + 15% BE
* Free Building Construction
* Can use credits to raze buildings
* + 30% Increased Thief Ops Damage (as in higher possible damage)

* Accelerated Construction not available
* - 25% magic effectiveness
* + 50% food consumption

[nooblet]

I have a better idea - get rid of Avian's -attack time, and find some other way to differentiate them from Orc/UD attackers.
Maybe they could have a turtle army worth using, except not weak like humans and with a different spellbook. Something like a 7/7 elite army would be interesting to see in action

[LukYspDe]

@mordrek, switching avians to a/m sounds like a good idea, definitely boosting the benefit of the BR bonus.

[goodz]

LP is +75% birth rates. +175% was actually very fast. An A/T can kidnap some of those peasents back if you leave him big and fireball. Chastity is of course an ok way to counter but keeping up 24/7 chastity is a lot of mana/effort.

If you chain the avian it still hits really hard/often. It is not as easy to play as orc or undead but I think would be somewhat competitive you cant overpower it too much because it is annoying in the top when you war avians and they leave at minimum time with 15-20% of your land :P

The 7/4 is so you can turtle a bit without fear of all your troops dieing from hits at army home, with the attack speed and 4 poitn elite you should also not be very ambush prone. It is all trying to help a bit with the huge losses.

So I look at it as a few options for the race.

A glass cannon avian rogue. You can kidnap back peasents / steal gc to keep your military trained. You also have Propaganda.

A pretty durable avian cleric.

A Avian tactician. This while require extreme activity but will be very very fast. The credits will help you maintain some military your high birth rates hopefully can keep you drafting.

Most other builds with this avian fail pretty hard.

Dwarf was already pretty weak this age. They also make more sense as an A/m from a fluff perspective. If they want to keep 2 a/t roles in the races making a dwarf a/t seems lame. :P

[goodz]

Birth rates is approx 2% so 1K peasants = 20*2.75*1.75 = 96 peasants an hour. in 6 hours you would have 1700 peasants. In 12 hours your near 3k again. If you can kidnap yourself back to 2-3k your peasants will double on their own every 8 hours or so. Recovering from a chain it is much easyier to rebuild your land with this. Training will growing is also much easier.

Downside is the deaths. i dunno take it or leave it but its better then some suggestions :D