faeries

[nooblet]

about the honor system,

How about instead of having individual ranks in honor, all the honor in the kingdom is averaged and the averaged rank (e.g. lord / baron etc.) is spread out across every province? This would make it slightly balanced and more team oriented as Faeries will not be able to individually hold so much honor, but instead, contribute to the whole Kingdom's Pool, and same goes with Orcs / Undeads sacrificing their honor as heavy attackers so they get their fair share at the end of the day...?

I would rather eliminate honor altogether...

[Landro]

I would rather eliminate honor altogether...

this

[Palem]

:') @ removing honor.

As to halfers being the "solution" to faerys it's just kind of absurd. Yes a halfer can run the numbers to op a faery, my examples earlier have the halfer with about 15% more tpa but 30% less wpa at the same D. It should be noted that the halfer in the example would actually be at 85.5% draft compared to the faeries 76.7% draft. So the halfers numbers would have to drop some where and the tpa would have to increase in order to ensure sustained ability to op faerys. You can't drop the D much otherwise the halfer is easily hit down so the WPA is what will suffer. So now you you have a highly specialized province that can't attack, cast spells or provide any sort of economy (note no other race requires such specialization to damage it) and can be easily counterd by the ocasonal smattering of ET when stealth gets high while MS brings D down into chainable range. I think that suggesting that halfer is the answer to faerys is comparable to suggesting that running 25 suiciding orcs is the answer. Both options would work to deal damage to faerys but both are strategically poor choices otherwise. Also no other race has a required singular way of dealing with them, why should faerys?

As Natsu said, there isn't 1 way to deal with faeries, there's (at least)3. But people claim that halfling is useless when it actually has a very good use. If your faery wants to waste it's mana on ET'ing your big halfers, then I would say it's not doing it's job very well, and thus, the halfers did their job. Plus you can't STOP the halflings from AW'ing you. Slow it down, sure, but not stop.

[Persain]

As Natsu said, there isn't 1 way to deal with faeries, there's (at least)3.

2 of those 3 ways dont deal with a feary without significantly weaking your kd as a whole. Simply put a single elf/halfer cant fully stop a feary and both open themselves in 1 direction to be destroyed by the feary.

Consider that both elf/halfer are either going to go hybrid or go pure t/m. Assume for the moment that a the pure t/m version can op a feary if built specially for it. However that leaves you with 1 way to hurt a feary and then sub par remaining theiveary/magic. Add to the fact that they wont put out as much total damage in either magic/theivery their much less NW and space efficient def and your left your not removing the feary from battle unless you put both 1elf+1halfer onto 1 feary. And thats only if you buy elf/halfer as a fully t/m. As soon as they go hybrid they get chained and cant op your feary anymore.

Of note too your mostly wrong about even being able to op a feary. Due to to the space efficeny of a feary V a halfer a feary SHOULD be able to have a higher mod tpa than the halfer given similar def. Example on a base population without science/honor a 4 wpa & ppa feary/halfer will get 14.5 and 17 pop space for def/theives.

A bit of simple math can then easily compare the remaining 2 numbers at say 3 defense 90 mod dpa, 100 mod dpa, 110 mod dpa. (using 1.33 for def modifier)
90 dpa => mod tpa of Feary=7.9 Halfer=8.5
100 dpa => mod tpa of Feary=6.6 Halfer=6.7
110 dpa => mod tpa of Feary=5.4 Halfer=4.8

The issue gets that as soon as your pure t/m needs 130-140+ the halfer has absolutely no ability to compete with a feary. You might say well lower the def but thats the exact reason y fearies are so strong they can more easily turtle to avoid the attackers both simply in space efficiencyas well as via nw efficiency.

[Palem]

But you're assuming that the halfer NEEDS as much defense as the faery. It doesn't. The faery needs closer to the 110 dpa range (if not more) and the halfer only needs somewhere around 90-100 range.

The beauty of the faery is, once you bring it down, it's down for good and once you strip that honor away, it's bad. Designating 1-2 provs to kill faeries is just as valuable as designating 1-2 faeries to TM rather than attack.

[goodz]

Faerys are great as support even with baron level honor. It is a colossal effort to take down a faery in war with how wars trend. Most people for ages now have ran high offense low defense. usually at a minimum 2x as much off as def. This leaves you 2-4x tapping other provinces in war. If you want you might be able to single a faery in your land range. But most kingdoms run them about 10-15% larger then their core which makes them very hard to break, might take a couple bounces or a lot of ops and a lot of failed ops.

Every good kingdom used them as support pretty much this age. So they seem good to me, not overpowerd, not underpowerd. Just good at what they do.

If a halfer is running as a t/m he needs the same def as a faery i would think, and he doesn't have tog to aid oow with. Also is a halfer is running as an a/t he imo is a very weak attacker. If the halfer is a pure thief.... he should be able to break a faerys tpa btu a faery should be able to cast spells on him more easily then he can steal from the faery imo :)

[goodz]

Replacing honor with a war wins chart would be nice I think. you would probably see less land dropping too. Only thing, I think the value of each war win would have to be changed.

Something like:
each war win = (opponents nw)*(1+(number of war wins of opponent)/2)/(1/number of losses by opponent) So if you beat someone 10% larger then you with 4/5 war wins it would be worth 3.3 for chart purposes. If you then beat someone who was 4/6 war wins it would only be worth 1.7 so perhaps too much variation in that formula, but you get the idea. :P

Would need revamping still but yea something where it took into account how succesful your opponents had been at warring would be better for war wins charts.

[Persain]

The beauty of the faery is, once you bring it down, it's down for good and once you strip that honor away, it's bad. Designating 1-2 provs to kill faeries is just as valuable as designating 1-2 faeries to TM rather than attack.

agreed here, once you remove the honor from a feary you significantly hurt it however you hurt it no more than a pure t/m halfing/elf that you chain out of war and remove all their honor.

And unless you built a full kd of elf/halfing hybrids a kd with attackers are going to take out your halfings/elfs well before they deal siginificant damage to your fearies since they are running such a lower def than the feary.

Which begs the question if you want to run a elf/halfing as a FULL TM how can you say that

But you're assuming that the halfer NEEDS as much defense as the faery. It doesn't. The faery needs closer to the 110 dpa range (if not more) and the halfer only needs somewhere around 90-100 range.

For some "play numbers" why shouldn't it play out that full t/m elf/halfing/feary are comparible like

feary=140 dpa, 15 wpa, 20 tpa + damage boost to magic/theifs
elf=140 dpa, 20 wpa, 15 tpa + mana recovery
halfer=140 dpa, 10 wpa, 25 tpa + stealth recovery

The advantage of elf/halfer is that they can drop pure t/m to be built hybrid if they want. (with halfer being lucky that they survive chains the better than a fell spec elf/ normal feary )

Edit.

Replacing honor with a war wins chart would be nice I think. you would probably see less land dropping too. Only thing, I think the value of each war win would have to be changed.

Something like:
each war win = (opponents nw)*(1+(number of war wins of opponent)/2)/(1/number of losses by opponent) So if you beat someone 10% larger then you with 4/5 war wins it would be worth 3.3 for chart purposes. If you then beat someone who was 4/6 war wins it would only be worth 1.7 so perhaps too much variation in that formula, but you get the idea. :P

Would need revamping still but yea something where it took into account how succesful your opponents had been at warring would be better for war wins charts.

Or you could just make it that WW= +1 honor ranks, Loss=-0.5 honor ranks, every kd starts as Lord. minimum score of 0. could go back to the current "honor" being called fame with fame simply as a measure of "succuess" but having no benefit to your kd.

[Palem]

agreed here, once you remove the honor from a feary you significantly hurt it however you hurt it no more than a pure t/m halfing/elf that you chain out of war and remove all their honor.

That's mostly true, except for one thing. Faeries biggest appeal is that it acts as a very secure honor dump. When honor goes into a faery it, more or less, stays there. The same can't really be said for halfers/elves because they're far more open to TM ops/attacks than a faery is. If at this point in the age a faery gets wiped out of it's honor and dropped, it's pretty useless for the rest of the age, but a halfer/elf could open up as a hybrid and accumulate honor that way.

[Persain]

That's mostly true, except for one thing. Faeries biggest appeal is that it acts as a very secure honor dump. When honor goes into a faery it, more or less, stays there. The same can't really be said for halfers/elves because they're far more open to TM ops/attacks than a faery is. If at this point in the age a faery gets wiped out of it's honor and dropped, it's pretty useless for the rest of the age, but a halfer/elf could open up as a hybrid and accumulate honor that way.

True, thats a risk you'd run in going feary v elf/halfing as a pure t/m. I mean consider this, elf=+wpa +mana. Hafling=+tpa +stealth. Assume the +mana/stealth are on par with (though not equal to) the +damage a feary gets.

Using feary v elf as a pure t/m the example i should think
Feary = lower wpa, equal magic damage, higher tpa, higher theif damage, equal def, cant go hybrid.
Elf= higher wpa, euqal magic damage, lower tpa, lower theif damage, equal def, can go hybrid if stripped of honor.

Chaining a feary/removing their honor SHOULD be detrimental and make them slightly worse of a t/m than say a elf t/m with much higher honor. Honor is powerful if you cant protect your t/m why shouldnt they suffer. I mean if u want a pure t/m you should have to choose between
1.Best pure T/M high power that u need to protect (feary),
2.good theif that can convert to hybrid if needed (halfing)
3.good mage that can covert to hybrid if needed (Elf)

to that end the mod def and space/nw efficiency of def all those races should balance out when building pure t/m

[Evillone]

lol i love how people keep trying to say this is an honor problem. Their is nothing wrong with the honor system the problem is that faerys can accumulate WAY too much honor. Palem himself has said Faerys make a very good "honor dump" because its VERY hard to take it back from them.

Why is it so hard to take honor back from faerys? Its because they are inredibly strong without the honor, almost impossible to op (endless you are running halfer Super thieves and Elf super mages which are tactically unsound province in every other sense) and they are also almost impossible to attack (endless you have suciders or outgrown orcs/UD bigger than the enemy's outgrown faerys, again tactically unsound) and they become near invincible when they do have honor.

Having huge amounts of honor stacked on any other race isn't a problem because the races have natural weaknesses that can be exploited to deal them damage and take back the honor. The only natural weakness faerys have is that they cant attack which is very hard to take advantage of in terms of dealing them damage/taking their honor.

Basically by Palem saying that they make a great "honor dump" he is making my point. If faerys where not overpowered to begin with they wouldn't make such great honor dumps and thus them being able to stack huge amounts of honor wouldn't be an issue.

Lets say you took Orcs and striped them of all offensive spells and thief ops (faerys cant attack so orcs cant op) now you gave the orc a 7 point D spec and a 9/4 elite (so it can turtle like faery) and then you gave it CS+double WT effectiveness and doubled RM effectiveness for them as well. The orc would still be easier to OP and attack than the faery, wouldn't be able to deal any offensive T/M damage at all and people would still SCREAM that it was overpowered & in reality its attacks would still cause less damage than the faerys T/M ops.

[Persain]

lol i love how people keep trying to say this is an honor problem. Their is nothing wrong with the honor system the problem is that faerys can accumulate WAY too much honor. Palem himself has said Faerys make a very good "honor dump" because its VERY hard to take it back from them.

Why is it so hard to take honor back from faerys?

Its not hard to take back honor at all, simply conquest the feary and then chain them. The issue is that fairies get to powerful with honor in comparison to other races that can go pure t/m .
150 dpa on a feary/halfing or elf would be just as scary to an attacker. In theory if the only trade-off between them were feary does more total damage but cant hyrbid while the other 2 do less total t/m damage but can covert to hybrid then it'd be fair. thats not the issue though as neither elf/halfing can ever hope to match the def on a feary.

Based on the recent changes with human away from a/t and avain from A to a/t the whole thing should be a new sliding scale where in theory if they could balance things out perfectly (avain/halfer theif version of elf/dwarf)

Feary T/M: +most t/m damage +xpa bonus
Elf t/M: +magic damage,+wpa bonus (should match feary but trade +wpa/hyrbid choice for no theif bonus)
Elf a/M:weak attacker innate magic bonus
Dwarf a/M: exact same as elf a/M differnt bonus same goal
Dwarf A/m: stronger attacker weak mage
Human: transtion from hybrid to attacker
Orc/Undead: A, Sustain, high off. Choose ops+plauge or science.

[Evillone]

"Its not hard to take back honor at all, simply conquest the feary and then chain them."

Yes because conquest is always such a practical discsion. That way all your attackers have low incoming land (while not getting any of added economical benefits of making a TM) and are sitting ducks to be chained themselves. All thees solutions have the possibility of damaging A faery its true but none of them are practical and none of them are maintainable. The fact is its far too hard to deal faery's damage and that is the reason they make such good honor banks. Make them easier to hurt in some way and the honor is not an issue. This doesn't necessarily mean nerfing Faerys either, if you boost halfers and elfs it would have a similar effect. When faerys didn't have to + to thievery effectiveness and halfers had the +50% thieves and pop bonus no one complained about faerys because halfer was a legit answer to them, now halfers suck in comparison so faery is OP.

[Palem]

lol i love how people keep trying to say this is an honor problem. Their is nothing wrong with the honor system the problem is that faerys can accumulate WAY too much honor. Palem himself has said Faerys make a very good "honor dump" because its VERY hard to take it back from them.

Why is it so hard to take honor back from faerys? Its because they are inredibly strong without the honor, almost impossible to op (endless you are running halfer Super thieves and Elf super mages which are tactically unsound province in every other sense) and they are also almost impossible to attack (endless you have suciders or outgrown orcs/UD bigger than the enemy's outgrown faerys, again tactically unsound) and they become near invincible when they do have honor.

It's not that faeries are impossible to drain honor from, it's just that it's usually not worth the effort of doing so. Whether you care to acknowledge it or not, faeries defense is their vulnerability. It's enough to keep them safe from the random looky-lew, just like 2 tpa is enough to keep out some pesky thief who's just looking around for stuff, but if you WANT to bring down a faery, you can. Whether that be by bounce waves, Conquests, Halfers/Elves, ect faeries aren't impossible to take down.

What makes faeries a good honor dump is that taking them down requires a real coordinated push and not just a side project for the kd to be doing while they're exchanging hits with a kd. Even more, the longer a war goes, the higher the honor gap between the faeries and everyone else will be so if you don't bring them down at the beginning, it's unlikely that you'll bring them down at all. It doesn't really have much to do with faery being good at what's designed to do (be a TM), it's just it's resilience to dropping that makes it valuable to kds.

[Evillone]

LOL Palem i didn't say it was impossible... i said it was "near impossible" which is true. Like You said it takes a highly coordinated kingdom wide effort to take down 1 faery. Ok so cool while you take down one faery the enemy kingdom takes down 2-3 of your attackers, meaning it takes longer to take down the next faery. SO now you have taken down 2 faerys and they enemy has taken down 6-8 of you attackers. by the time you have taken down the 4th faery every single one of your attackers has been chained and you no longer have the punch to take down another, meanwhile the enemy's attackers have gone completely untouched the entire war and you have essentially lost. On the flip side if you wait to take out the faerys you will have missed your chance because MO and NW will be ground down to a point where the faeries are untouchable. So you can either ignore the faerys and hope to win the war regardless of what they do (the best option) or you can adopt a strategy that will loose you the war but deal damage to the faerys. As far as i know most people go into wars with the intention of winning, not dealing damage to faerys and it shouldn't be a choice between hurting faerys or winning the war you should be able to do both...