faeries

[Natsu]

Remember that Faery provinces don't really run hospitals or guard stations since they have a huge amount of defense. I'll give you all a little hint regarding Faery provinces and numbers to see the difference on how hard they get hurt when coordinating attacks.

Faery military loss
300 elites lost * 8 points per elite = 2,400 raw defense. 2,400 raw defense * 1.323 = 3,175 modified defense lost. 3,175 modified defense * 4 attacks = 12,700 estimated defense lost.
450 elites lost * 8 points per elite = 2,400 raw defense. 3,600 raw defense * 1.323 = 4,762 modified defense lost. 4,762 modified defense * 4 attacks = 19,048 estimated defense lost.
600 elites lost * 8 points per elite = 4,800 raw defense. 4,800 raw defense * 1.323 = 6,350 modified defense lost. 6,350 modified defense * 4 attacks = 23,400 estimated defense lost.
750 elites lost * 8 points per elite = 6,000 raw defense. 6,000 raw defense * 1.323 = 7,938 modified defense lost. 7,938 modified defense * 4 attacks = 31,752 estimated defense lost.
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Elf military loss (potentially running hospitals)
200 specs lost * 6 points per spec = 1,200 raw defense. 1,200 raw defense * 1.323 = 1,587 modified defense lost. 3,175 modified defense * 4 attacks = 6,350 estimated defense lost.
400 specs lost * 6 points per spec = 2,400 raw defense. 2,400 raw defense * 1.323 = 3,175 modified defense lost. 3,175 modified defense * 4 attacks = 12,700 estimated defense lost.
600 specs lost * 6 points per spec = 3,600 raw defense. 3,600 raw defense * 1.323 = 4,762 modified defense lost. 4,762 modified defense * 4 attacks = 19,048 estimated defense lost.
800 specs lost * 6 points per spec = 4,800 raw defense. 4,800 raw defense * 1.323 = 6,350 modified defense lost. 6,350 modified defense * 4 attacks = 25,400 estimated defense lost.
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Halfling military loss (potentially running hospitals)
200 elites lost * 6 points per elites = 1,200 raw defense. 1,200 raw defense * 1.323 = 1,587 modified defense lost. 3,175 modified defense * 4 attacks = 6,350 estimated defense lost.
400 elites lost * 6 points per elites = 2,400 raw defense. 2,400 raw defense * 1.323 = 3,175 modified defense lost. 3,175 modified defense * 4 attacks = 12,700 estimated defense lost.
600 elites lost * 6 points per elites = 3,600 raw defense. 3,600 raw defense * 1.323 = 4,762 modified defense lost. 4,762 modified defense * 4 attacks = 19,048 estimated defense lost.
800 elites lost * 6 points per elites = 4,800 raw defense. 4,800 raw defense * 1.323 = 6,350 modified defense lost. 6,350 modified defense * 4 attacks = 25,400 estimated defense lost.

Therefore as you can see even though a Faery starts with a higher defense their defense is front loaded and each hit drains their defense by a larger margin per hit. So a Faery running 150,000 defense (125dpa) lets say at 1,200 acres gets hit 4x then that drops their defense to lets say 126,600 (105.5dpa). After the initial 4 hits it's a 15.6% defense loss. Now lets follow that % trend.

150,000 * 0.844 = 126,600 (After 4 hits)
126,600 * 0.844 = 106,850 (After 8 hits)
106,850 * 0.844 = 90,181 (After 12 hits)
90,191 * 0.844 = 76,112 (After 16 hits)

This is where the Faery provinces are weak. High defense only acts as a buffer against attacks nothing more. The issue is the initial 4 hits but after that it'll be a snowball effect to the Faery's destruction.

Also, Here is where specialized Pure-Mage and Pure-Thief come in handy.
Pure Mage Elf - Lightning strike enemy Faery provinces once it becomes available (5 casts max should drain their stock to almost nothing). Also, Keep Expose Thieves on the enemy Faery provinces.
Pure Thief Halfling - Steal Runes, Sabotage Wizards (when available) Bribe Generals (when available), Assassinate Wizards (If Rogue), and Propaganda (If Rogue).

Numbers in my post will vary but the numbers are to show how much of an impact hits on a faery province hurts. Approximately 3.9% defense loss per hit against Faery provinces while Elves and Halflings have approximately 1.68% defense loss per hit rate.

[Evillone]

Esintaly it seems like people are saying "their are ways of dealing with faerys so they are not overpowered" and what I'm saying is those methods of dealing with them have to be tactically sound decisions (which they are not) for them to mean spit.

[Evillone]

Natsu a Halfer or elf has to be a pure Thief or mage to have a chance to op faerys so they need just as much D as the faery dose (saying one T/M needs less than another T/M is just dumb). They also would have worse economies. So why would a halfer super thief or Elf super mage have room in its strat for hospitals (when none are planing on getting hit just like faeries) when faerys don't? Come up with a tactically sound way of dealing with faerys that is as easy to implement as tactics used to deal with other races and then i will concede that faerys are not overpowered.

Not to mention those losses numbers are completly arbitrary and have no real meaning. Halfers and elfs will sustain high troop count losses because they need more troops to produce the same amount of D. So if an elf or halfer wasn't running hospitals it would loose more troops but essentially the same amount of D as the faery. So now you have a province with a worse economy having to spend MORE gc to repair the same amount of damage, sounds like a loose loose to me.

[Evillone]

Really the Elf super mage or Halfer Super thief is just silly in and of itself. this is becuse a Faery dedicated to pure magery or pure thievery would suit the purpose better. The faery can sacrifice its WPA to be able to thieve other faerys and still have RM to protect against spells or vice versa with CS +boasts a better economy than either halfers or elfs.

[Natsu]

So having provinces dedicated to eliminating T/Ms from war so they can't op your kingdom is silly? The less ops your attackers take the more they are able to grow which means with time they'll be able to smack the enemy T/Ms around (might need a bit of aid to do it faster). What can a Faery T/M do without runes or stealth?

[Evillone]

in short yes. You want a halfer to asasinate/sabatoge wizards of the faery+ steal runes and you also want an Elf to ET+lightening strike. In this way you say they will "controll" the faery which is all well and good. The only problem is that the elf and halfer would have to run very low TPA or WPA respectivly in order to have a high enough WPA/TPA to OP the faery. This means that reguler attackers could spend thier manna/stealth on ET and SW to controll your Elf and Halfer in the same fashion that you wanted to controll the faery in. Its not a practical solution. Like i said come up with a tactically sound way of dealing with faerys that is as easy to implement as tactics used to deal with other races and then i will concede that faerys are not overpowered.

[Natsu]

You don't need to have a huge difference between your province's wpa vs enemy province's wpa. Same goes for tpa side of it. All you need is a 50% success rate on the enemy then you're good. 10 casts on enemy T/Ms to drop them from upwards of 400k runes down to 40~50k runes is devastating enough (Can be done in at most 8 attempts per target) for Lightning Strike. Same concept goes for the Halflings because 'Steal from Towers' is an easy op to utilize and Sabotage Wizards only when needed (If not Rogue). Assassinate wizards if rogue to do more harm.

Only other option is to make max elite offense points 8 and max defense points 7. This will bring everything closer to the realm of hybrids. Something along the lines of:

Avian - 7/3 and give +1 def spec
Dwarf - 7/3
Elf - 6/6 with def specs being 0/5 not 0/6
Faery - 4/7
Halfling - 6/5 and remove the 2/2 soldier bonus but drop the BR penalty
Human - 5/6 with off specs being 5/0 not 6/0
Orc - 8/2
Undead - 8/3

Posted this in the "Race Changes Next Age" thread under Suggestions section. Allows fore more provinces to break but doesn't give one individual race an auto break feature which people want. Allowing 1~2 races a 100% chance to break regardless of province setup will only cause the demise of T/Ms altogether since you'll be fodder prewar.

[Palem]

Like i said come up with a tactically sound way of dealing with faerys that is as easy to implement as tactics used to deal with other races and then i will concede that faerys are not overpowered.

I think you're looking at this the wrong though. The way of "dealing" with say an Orc or Undead, is a nice deep chain. It minimizes the damage and such, but only for a while. Eventually, that attacker is going to bounce back up and most likely the time that takes won't be too terribly long.

For the most part, the cost vs benefit of chaining all the other races are more or less the same. Now yes, the cost of chaining a faery is higher, no doubt, but the benefit of chaining that faery is miles ahead of the benefit of chaining another race. Once that faeries down, it's done. So yea, they chained down 2-3 of your attackers while you were bringing down the faery? Well, odds are those attackers are still capable of launching effective attacks and doing their job, even if they're smaller. So now it's 24v25. Chain another faery, they chain 2-3 more attackers and now it's 23v25, and the first round of chainees have most likely grown up a bit to the middle of the pack again.

[nooblet]

Faeries aren't overpowered... just incredibly annoying to deal with, and good when played by someone who knows what they're doing.

Sometimes deep-chaining a heavy attacker doesn't work, either... late in war, people get landfat and have way too much incoming, and attackers start to drop off. It's easy for chains to start faltering when 5-6 of your heavies have been dropped to near-zero defense. Undead are especially resilient against chains due to their army strength, town watch, and plague being a major pain to take off, on top of their normal combat losses penalty and lack of food requirements removing a couple of things that are aggravating for a chained province to deal with.

The tactically sound method for dealing with Faery - or any t/m heavy kingdom - is to have a plan in place for managing the damage wrought by their ops. Faeries are designed to be difficult to take down by any means, and if they were easy enough for a cut and dried strategy to take down, they wouldn't be worth using. If a Faery's ops are rendered as ineffective as possible, they don't need to be taken down. Often times the Faery can nerf herself just by being in a kingdom with poor resource management.

On paper - sure, Faeries can be dealt with directly, and trashing them in the first two days of war can be beneficial under the right circumstances. Trying to create hard and fast rules for every war is a fail strategy. Overpopulation is a tool, not the entire purpose of fighting a war... sometimes it's forgotten, and kingdoms can expend more resources trying to overpopulate someone than it's worth.

[Persain]

As far as i know most people go into wars with the intention of winning, not dealing damage to faerys and it shouldn't be a choice between hurting faerys or winning the war you should be able to do both...

ts not a choice between one or the other if you design the waring kd correctly, the question is how hard do u chain and at what point are they worth ignoring. Palem describes the exact reason u take out a feary.

For the most part, the cost vs benefit of chaining all the other races are more or less the same. Now yes, the cost of chaining a faery is higher, no doubt, but the benefit of chaining that faery is miles ahead of the benefit of chaining another race. Once that faeries down, it's done. So yea, they chained down 2-3 of your attackers while you were bringing down the faery? Well, odds are those attackers are still capable of launching effective attacks and doing their job, even if they're smaller. So now it's 24v25. Chain another faery, they chain 2-3 more attackers and now it's 23v25, and the first round of chainees have most likely grown up a bit to the middle of the pack again.

This, however my argument is that a pure t/m elf or halfing is MUCH easier to bring down due to worse nw/acre and dpa while they are equally susceptible to chains.

If you compare the 3 races desgined to be able to go pure t/m
Feary:runs pure def, dies if chained HIGH mod def, strong magic/theif
elf: runs pure def specs, dies if chained. Low mod def, strong magic, weak theives
Halfing: full leet, converts if chained but has horrible losses/terrible army. low mod def, weak magic, strong theives.

If you choose between those 3 for pure t/m elf gets screwed, while halfing trades low def for some hitting if chained.
The argument that elf can compete is what?..
For Halfing does the benefit of "hitting" outweigh the negatives of say 110 dpa v 150 dpa, I'd say maybe with a 6/6 army or +10% pop but not when feary is soooo much more nw efficient.

Relatively speaking in "waring" kds it better to have that insane mod dpa so that

if you don't bring them down at the beginning, it's unlikely that you'll bring them down at all. It doesn't really have much to do with faery being good at what's designed to do (be a TM), it's just it's resilience to dropping that makes it valuable to kds.

.
So that consider halfer/feary at 2000 acres. If you dont deal with them sitting at 200k def / 300k def and you get 3 days into war which one has a remote chance of being conquested....that alone forces the pick of feary and means they are stronger than the other races designed to be able to b a t/m. i.e. a bit to powerful in comparison. (buff elf/halfer or nerf feary either works)

[Palem]

What you're arguing is that Faery makes a better TM than a halfling or Elf. Well no duh. Faery is specifically designed to be a TM and nothing else. With halfer and elf it's just that the option is available to them. Basically you're making the argument that Elf is OP as a/m because faery makes a bad one...

[goodz]

faerys losing honor can still cast spells adequatly. No reason in a warring kigndom to keep your faery over 100 dpa. Its about the ops not honor/land accumulation in warring kingdoms.

[Palem]

Incredibly well > Adequate

[Persain]

What you're arguing is that Faery makes a better TM than a halfling or Elf. Well no duh. Faery is specifically designed to be a TM and nothing else. With halfer and elf it's just that the option is available to them. Basically you're making the argument that Elf is OP as a/m because faery makes a bad one...

No im argueing that an elf that goes T/M (as its designed to be able to do) shouldn't take hit to their mod tpa, theif damage, mod def and economy just so they can MATCH a feary on magic damage but have a slightly higher wpa.

Same goes for halfing. They take a hit to mod wpa, magic damage, mod def and economy to match the damage output of a feary in thief with a bonus to mod tpa.

Thats just to costly to ever assume either elf/hafling should go pure t/m (again as they are designed to be able to do) and forces them into the role of hybrid. I mean it should be that a elf pure t/m should be stronger in magic/weaker in theif than a feary but be able to match the feary in def/economy...at least in concept. Similarly a halfing pure t/m should be stronger in theif/weaker in magic but be mostly able to match a feary in def/economy...small hit here for attacking leets is fine.

[Palem]

I mean it should be that a elf pure t/m should be stronger in magic/weaker in theif than a feary but be able to match the feary in def/economy...at least in concept. Similarly a halfing pure t/m should be stronger in theif/weaker in magic but be mostly able to match a feary in def/economy...small hit here for attacking leets is fine.

I don't see why you think that should follow....
Elves and halfers both have the luxury of being able to retal hits that they receive. Something that Faery has absolutely no options for. You're not seeing the picture as a whole...