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Thread: Race and Personality Changes next age - based on input

  1. #1
    Mediator goodz's Avatar
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    Race and Personality Changes next age - based on input

    EDITED BECAUSE BISHOP SAYS PROBABLY 4 POINT SPEC
    Races:

    Avian:
    -25% attack time
    +175% birth rates
    +30% thievery damage

    -10% gains
    no access to hospitals

    5/2
    Town watch, invisibility, mystic aura, vermin.


    Dwarf:
    + 20% Building Efficiency
    Free Building Construction
    Can use credits to raze buildings
    + 30% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)

    +50% Food Consumption
    Can't use Accelerated Construction

    Elite: 5/3

    Quick Feet, Fanaticism, Fools Gold, Clearsight


    Elves:
    1 Mana Recovery / Tick in war
    + 50% WPA
    + 1 defence specialist strength

    Elite: 4/3

    Pitfalls, Mages Fury, Amnesia, Nightmare


    Faery:
    +30% magic effectiveness
    +30% thievery effectiveness
    3/5

    Penalty:
    +25% wages


    All offensive spells, Quick feet, invisibility, mages fury.


    Halfling
    +50% TPA
    +1 stealth
    - 50% thief cost
    soldiers fight as 2 points

    -25% pop growth

    Town watch, reflect magic.

    4/4 elite


    Humans (unchanged):
    +15% Population
    + 50% Sabotage damage
    + 50% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)

    -1 def spec strength

    Elite: 3/3 250 gc.

    Tree of Gold, Fountain of Knowledge, War Spoils


    Orc (loses reflect magic):
    + 20% Gains
    Earns Elite Credits

    -50% Combat Instant Spell Damage and Duration
    -50% Sabotage Damage

    Bloodlust, Fanaticism, Aggression

    Elite: 6/1


    Undead: (unchanged)
    -50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
    Converts some Specialists into Elites on successful land attacks
    Spreads and is Immune to The Plague
    No Food Required

    - 20% science effectiveness
    - Cannot train elites

    Greater Protection, Town Watch, Animate Dead, Chastity

    Elite: 7/2



    Personality:
    War hero: (is this just a random assortment of leftover bonuses?)
    -50% land losses on ambush
    +1 general (removed from warrior)
    Immune to dragons

    Warrior:
    +10% OME (all times not just in war)
    +10% enemy casualties

    Sage:
    + 30% Science Effectiveness
    - 50% Losses on Learn Attacks, -50% damage from amnesia
    Immune to the Plague

    Rest remain unchanged
    Last edited by goodz; 25-07-2012 at 04:01.
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodz View Post
    Races:
    Humans (unchanged):
    +10% Population
    + 50% Sabotage damage
    + 50% Spell Damage (Instant Spells)

    no penalty

    Elite: 5/3, 500gc, 5NW
    Humans are 5/5 this age on elites so it can't be considered unchanged.

    Quote Originally Posted by goodz View Post
    Faery:
    +30% magic effectiveness
    +30% thievery effectiveness
    3/6 def spec (6nw, 800gc)

    Penalty:
    +25% wages


    All offensive spells, Quick feet, invisibility, mages fury.


    Orc (loses reflect magic):
    + 20% Gains
    Earns Elite Credits

    -50% Combat Instant Spell Damage and Duration
    -50% Sabotage Damage

    Bloodlust, Fanaticism, Aggression

    Elite: 8/2, 800gc, 7NW


    Undead: (unchanged)
    -50% Offensive losses on attacks you make
    Converts some Specialists into Elites on successful land attacks
    Spreads and is Immune to The Plague
    No Food Required

    - 20% science effectiveness
    - Cannot train elites

    Greater Protection, Town Watch, Animate Dead, Chastity

    Elite: 9/3, cannot train, 7.5NW
    I'm sorry but you can't have two races with 2~3 off points higher on elites as MO is easier to modify than defense is. This will make the game too imbalanced. If you want it fair then you need to drop the Undead and Orc elites to 7 max then adjust the other elites for different races accordingly. If you want the Orcs and Undead to be at 8/2 and possibly 9/3 (which should technically be 9/2 and 8/3 imo) then Faery needs to atleast have 7 defense on elites. Stop trying to nerf a race for a broken honor system. Just kill honor from the game. If you nerf Faery like you have without any decent form of attacking ability while Orcs and Undead stay as strong or become stronger then you might aswell remove the race from this game as it will serve no other purpose than being fodder.

    Quote Originally Posted by goodz View Post
    Personality:
    War hero: (is this just a random assortment of leftover bonuses?)
    -50% land losses on ambush
    +1 general (removed from warrior)
    Immune to dragons

    Warrior:
    +10% OME (all times not just in war)
    +10% enemy casualties

    Sage:
    + 30% Science Effectiveness
    - 50% Losses on Learn Attacks, -50% damage from amnesia
    Immune to the Plague

    Rest remain unchanged
    I vote to keep personalities as is overall except maybe buffing a few that are lacking. For example possibly switching the '+50% more bonuses from honor' maybe change it to '-25% honor losses from attacks'. Also, Maybe make the Warrior bonus '+15% OME in war' being '+12.5% OME (both in and outside of war)'. For Sage just make +30% Science Effectiveness and -65% Losses on Learn Attacks along with keeping the Immune to Plague status since they will have more sciences usually and the Base gains are 9.375% of each category of science. This means a Sage loses 3.28% of their books. 800k total books (sage) * 0.0328 = 26,240 books lost. 400k (non-sage) * 0.09375 = 37,500 books lost. Okay, This is a 11,260 base difference for Sage but that is the bonus sage players chose. They get no other bonus other than protecting books and having them slightly more useful. Sage provinces aren't technically useful until around the half way mark of the age.
    Last edited by Natsu; 23-07-2012 at 18:40.
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    spec and elite numbers will probably drop next age
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natsu View Post
    I'm sorry but you can't have two races with 2~3 off points higher on elites as MO is easier to modify than defense is. This will make the game too imbalanced. If you want it fair then you need to drop the Undead and Orc elites to 7 max then adjust the other elites for different races accordingly. If you want the Orcs and Undead to be at 8/2 and possibly 9/3 (which should technically be 9/2 and 8/3 imo) then Faery needs to atleast have 7 defense on elites. Stop trying to nerf a race for a broken honor system. Just kill honor from the game. If you nerf Faery like you have without any decent form of attacking ability while Orcs and Undead stay as strong or become stronger then you might aswell remove the race from this game as it will serve no other purpose than being fodder.
    In terms of offence: yes it is true that offence is easier to modify but that is of necessity. An attacker needs to run offence as well as defence, there is absolutely nothing that says that t/m's should be unbreakable to most attackers. If the average attacker runs 50 dpa, Faery shouldn't be able to run 120, they should be running 80-90. With the changes suggested that is exactly where they are (probably able to run 90 dpa with decent theives/wizards). It isn't honor that is broken (although it could use some tweaks) it is a race that has too much defence. Honor on faery only seems broken because it is almost impossible to do anything to them that gains honor (almost impossible to hit them in range, almost impossible to op them). This change would allow faery to be either a solid hybrid (a/t or a/m) or a solid t/m without being ridiculously overpowered in either.

    Undead can't train elites so yes they have high elite offence but they can't run 100% elite off and are extremely vulnerable to losing them (honestly I'd give them back no off losses if you take away ability to train elites). Orcs can only be pure attackers, and still need thieves/wizards for defence. This is fairly balanced.

    @Goodz

    My biggest complaint about this list is there is too much "hybrids" and races are homogenous, almost every race is either a "a/t" or "a/m". I'd rather see the move towards more longevity than a move towards encouraging different hybrids (e.g. give dwarves +10% income instead of +30% spell damage), give avians something like "hospitals are twice as effective" (this would line up with them needing them due to being faster). There is already a good a/m (elf) and already good a/t (human), why do we need another but worse a/m (dwarf bonus) and a/t (avian bonus)?

    Hybrids have to have space efficiency or they will lose hugely to pure attackers or pure t/m's. Humans are viable a/t's because they have +population, elves are viable a/m because they have +wpa. Giving dwarf +spell damage and Avian +sabotage damage is worthless without some sort of space efficiency.

    It is not clear why you nerfed elves and humans. Both are balanced races as it stands, you made humans unplayable and elves even worse than they are now (and they are weak now except for a few to NM chain).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    spec and elite numbers will probably drop next age
    You need to be really careful with making most attackers able to break each other. A move towards more races being in the 5/5, 6/4 range is a mistake. It exacerbates the problem with conflicts hurting growth by making it difficult to open. Waving from/to an orc or undead kingdom is easy. But a human kingdom waving another human kingdom is nearly impossible so they do it in steps sending a few hits at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    spec
    Mal, read again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    spec and elite numbers will probably drop next age
    just out of curiosity whats wrong having the numbers on specs/leets be so high. To me it seems conceptually easier to have 110k off breaking 90k def than say 11k breaking 9k.

    I.e. sending 7500 when i need 7412 to break feels alot safer than sending 75 when i need 74.12 to break. Allows for a bit more slop in the exact number i send and makes the game feel less "mathy."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    In terms of offense: yes it is true that offense is easier to modify but that is of necessity. An attacker needs to run offence as well as defence, there is absolutely nothing that says that t/m's should be unbreakable to most attackers. If the average attacker runs 50 dpa, Faery shouldn't be able to run 120, they should be running 80-90. With the changes suggested that is exactly where they are (probably able to run 90 dpa with decent theives/wizards). It isn't honor that is broken (although it could use some tweaks) it is a race that has too much defense. Honor on faery only seems broken because it is almost impossible to do anything to them that gains honor (almost impossible to hit them in range, almost impossible to op them). This change would allow faery to be either a solid hybrid (a/t or a/m) or a solid t/m without being ridiculously overpowered in either.

    Undead can't train elites so yes they have high elite offense but they can't run 100% elite off and are extremely vulnerable to losing them (honestly I'd give them back no off losses if you take away ability to train elites). Orcs can only be pure attackers, and still need thieves/wizards for defense. This is fairly balanced.
    So you're telling me that a Faery doesn't have to train more thieves and wizards to be an effective T/M which combined equates to the number of population that an attacker has to train? That without honor ingame an Orc or Undead can't break a Faery easy? What I'm getting at is if you remove Honor from the game or make it a kingdom based Honor system rather than province based you'd have an even margin for all races so Faery provinces would be difficult to break but won't become unbreakable later. Faeries are meant to be the most difficult to break since they are a pure T/M whereas Elves can function as a/M, t/M, or pure-Mage and Halflings can function as a/T, T/m, or pure-thief. This is the difference as to why Faery provinces have a 1~2 point max difference compared to the top two offense oriented elite provinces. If you start making it 3+ difference then you are effectively removing Faeries from the game since a race that isn't able to attack and has no way of defending itself properly is essentially fodder.

    I fail to understand how Faery provinces are overpowered when some kingdoms can remove Faery provinces from war easily while other kingdoms have issues with this. Wouldn't all kingdoms have issues making Faery provinces ineffective if Faeries were overpowered and not so much the Honor part being broken? Shoot I normally play other races in Utopia but played Faery to help train some new people for the T/M role easier and I can tell you as a Faery I was casting on Lightning Strike on another Faery province who was an Honor rank higher than me stripping them of runes at a 33% success rate. First successful cast 200k runes gone, Second successful cast 130k runes gone, and Third successful cast 80k runes gone. This left them with 50k runes. One of my fellow T/Ms did the same on another enemy T/M. Their kingdom had less runes than us so don't tell me Faery is broken as you haven't figured out how to eliminate them from war with minimum effort. Hell I even gave away how you deal with Faery provinces with the least effort.
    T/Ms apparently = black sheep of Utopia.

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    Mediator goodz's Avatar
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    Right now there is a few things annoying in war. Multi taps are out of control, Orc/undead are pretty well quadding each other all war. Just too much OPA. Faery in war is beyond inconvenient to break it is pretty well impossible after 24h to hit a faery.

    Faery lost its pop penalty. If you think an attacker probably needs 4 peasents per acre. 7dspa and 2tpa 1 wpa. Leaves him with 11 elites per acre. This is based on 83% draft but with science / honor you can get more elites in. This is going to be around 115 opa.

    A faery is going to probably have a bit lower draft so it has some income and can help with funding of dragons etc. Lets say our faery wants 6 peasents per acre. That leaves 19 troops. We put in 4tpa and 3wpa. Leaves 12 elites per acre or 72 raw dpa. With forts and mp wages your talking 95 dpa. T/M provinces have existed for ages and never normally start all their wars unbreakable....

    So you can during hostile / start of war hit a faery running pure defence. But a faery wont be getting opped and your offence is going to quickly start to drop... Pre war massacres on faerys are much less prevalent with massacres now adding 2 points to the meter, I don't think they need as much protection as they used to have. If you get chained as a t/m faery has a 5 point off spec again so you can attack back up to a reasonable amount and then convert and explore if you wish.
    Last edited by goodz; 23-07-2012 at 20:55.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natsu View Post
    I fail to understand how Faery provinces are overpowered when some kingdoms can remove Faery provinces from war easily while other kingdoms have issues with this. Wouldn't all kingdoms have issues making Faery provinces ineffective if Faeries were overpowered and not so much the Honor part being broken? Shoot I normally play other races in Utopia but played Faery to help train some new people for the T/M role easier and I can tell you as a Faery I was casting on Lightning Strike on another Faery province who was an Honor rank higher than me stripping them of runes at a 33% success rate. First successful cast 200k runes gone, Second successful cast 130k runes gone, and Third successful cast 80k runes gone. This left them with 50k runes. One of my fellow T/Ms did the same on another enemy T/M. Their kingdom had less runes than us so don't tell me Faery is broken as you haven't figured out how to eliminate them from war with minimum effort. Hell I even gave away how you deal with Faery provinces with the least effort.
    The only reason to stock up runes pre war is to burn though your inital mana, after that production=mana. If you case LS pre war the feary can spend 10-20% stealth and steal runes from another kd. You spent 9 casts of LS to remove 10-20% stealth from the feary. At worst an even trade you certainly didnt hurt them.

    The some kds that "remove" fearies from war are the kds that face much smaller kds that dont care if they loose a feary. ALOT of kds simply wont war you if you have 4+ attackers that can break their largest feary....its costed my kd 3 weeks without war this age (last week was on us due to real life issues) as any kd we waved that had a large feary would instantly cf us untill they built up their feary into unbreakable (even if they were 1000's of acres larger than us). Changing the concept that your feary needs to be unbreakable to war by stopping them from being unbreakable is one solution, albeit not the best solution.

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    Mediator goodz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    In terms of offence: yes it is true that offence is easier to modify but that is of necessity. An attacker needs to run offence as well as defence, there is absolutely nothing that says that t/m's should be unbreakable to most attackers. If the average attacker runs 50 dpa, Faery shouldn't be able to run 120, they should be running 80-90. With the changes suggested that is exactly where they are (probably able to run 90 dpa with decent theives/wizards). It isn't honor that is broken (although it could use some tweaks) it is a race that has too much defence. Honor on faery only seems broken because it is almost impossible to do anything to them that gains honor (almost impossible to hit them in range, almost impossible to op them). This change would allow faery to be either a solid hybrid (a/t or a/m) or a solid t/m without being ridiculously overpowered in either.

    Undead can't train elites so yes they have high elite offence but they can't run 100% elite off and are extremely vulnerable to losing them (honestly I'd give them back no off losses if you take away ability to train elites). Orcs can only be pure attackers, and still need thieves/wizards for defence. This is fairly balanced.

    @Goodz

    My biggest complaint about this list is there is too much "hybrids" and races are homogenous, almost every race is either a "a/t" or "a/m". I'd rather see the move towards more longevity than a move towards encouraging different hybrids (e.g. give dwarves +10% income instead of +30% spell damage), give avians something like "hospitals are twice as effective" (this would line up with them needing them due to being faster). There is already a good a/m (elf) and already good a/t (human), why do we need another but worse a/m (dwarf bonus) and a/t (avian bonus)?

    Hybrids have to have space efficiency or they will lose hugely to pure attackers or pure t/m's. Humans are viable a/t's because they have +population, elves are viable a/m because they have +wpa. Giving dwarf +spell damage and Avian +sabotage damage is worthless without some sort of space efficiency.

    It is not clear why you nerfed elves and humans. Both are balanced races as it stands, you made humans unplayable and elves even worse than they are now (and they are weak now except for a few to NM chain).
    Human has 5/5 military with +10% population. All elites were nerfed. For example undead can no longer train elites so even though they are 9/3 they wont be full elite. Then orc is 8/2. Dwarf is 7/3 but they were weak this age so I think keeping the 7 point elite isn't huge. Rest of the races are 6 point elites.

    I think human is still very strong. Dwarf might need some minor nerfing, orc still seems a bit strong, and avian perhaps should drop a bit as well. But just posting stuff I think would improve what bothers me about current races.

    I agree about hybrids needing pop space and it being hard to do it on an avian or a dwarf but I still think it has some use. When you get chained as a dwarf the LL is <3, if you have higher wpa for whatever reason it makes it useful. There is times when it is useful like a guy gets chained and ditches too much tpa to attack and now you can ns him etc. Or targeting a guy using with NM's or massacres...
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    This is mostly angled at Mal but...

    Dwarves save on Rax, so they effectively have an 8/3 elite running stables instead of rax. I don't see how they are weak this age. They're a fine hybrid and a great sustain attacker. You can actually get pretty close to the same offense of an undead/orc (personalities aside, yes) thanks to the saved Rax and +15% BE. Plus the fact that you never have unbuilt land during war....

    Dwarves and Avians are more A/m+A/t instead of Elf/Halflings being a/M-a/T.

    And don't give races econ bonuses (ToG is bad enough). Flat income bonuses are negligible in war other than those that want to play UB or cows...

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    As far as legitimate suggestions, I think 3/6 is too low for Faery. Elf will make a better t/m if this is the case (and just think of how squishy elves are in this age). 3/7 should be minimum for Faery elite, even without the population reduction. TPA is too easy to mod with buildings, would be better off going Elf for the stronger WPA mod, 1/mana tick, and cheap defense. Honestly, I think current rendition of faery + the wage hike would be balanced enough, that'll mitigate their army size and bankability.

    I personally don't see what the deal is with faeries. We typically ignore them in wars unless it turns into a long war. I can almost always break faeries at the start of the war (or just nearly), and I can always conquest them at the end of the war (as a dwarf). I mean, sure they're annoying, but run some WPA and WTs and you won't get completely decked. But... they should be able to team up and shell down a player or two, just as the attackers can chain them down. And, they should have some deterrent from being hit. They're really not a short term threat, though.

    Anywho.. 3/6 is too small. Are faeries getting 5/0 ospecs back, or was that an omission? 5/0 and 3/7 with the rest of your changes looks fair to me.


    Edit: And give Hafling's back their TPA mod (Elves get theirs). TPA is cheaper than WPA anyhow. And their 5/6 elite. And Aggression. Halflings and Elves are the most viable hybrids, don't gut them anymore than they are already, or as you leave it, anyone who wants to play an A/m or A/t will have to play a dwarf. Elite offense (and defense to a lower degree) is huge when min-maxing a hybrid. I almost ran an UD/Mystic or Sage this age because I couldn't get Dwarf/Myst to the same modOPA and mWPA at the same PPA. The intangibles were the tipping factor, namely Quick Feet.

    Human is also pretty dinged up... they're strong now, but removing the +1 offspec kind of removes their Ace. Perhaps just nerf their % pop, or remove either ToG or FoK (allows humans to easily do silly things like run +25% population).
    Last edited by Zobo; 24-07-2012 at 04:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zobo View Post
    This is mostly angled at Mal but...

    Dwarves save on Rax, so they effectively have an 8/3 elite running stables instead of rax. I don't see how they are weak this age. They're a fine hybrid and a great sustain attacker. You can actually get pretty close to the same offense of an undead/orc (personalities aside, yes) thanks to the saved Rax and +15% BE. Plus the fact that you never have unbuilt land during war....

    Dwarves and Avians are more A/m+A/t instead of Elf/Halflings being a/M-a/T.

    And don't give races econ bonuses (ToG is bad enough). Flat income bonuses are negligible in war other than those that want to play UB or cows...
    I don't know what to tell you but I don't think dwarves are particularly weak this age, and I totally disagree with the "don't need to run rax" as I have stated numerous times. It makes no sense to balance things around suboptimal like only doing 2 attacks/day.

    Flat income bonuses are great in extended wars, say against an orc kingdom that can't keep you fireballed. Economy is what tends to dictate who wins extended wars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zobo View Post
    As far as legitimate suggestions, I think 3/6 is too low for Faery. Elf will make a better t/m if this is the case (and just think of how squishy elves are in this age). 3/7 should be minimum for Faery elite, even without the population reduction. TPA is too easy to mod with buildings, would be better off going Elf for the stronger WPA mod, 1/mana tick, and cheap defense. Honestly, I think current rendition of faery + the wage hike would be balanced enough, that'll mitigate their army size and bankability.

    I personally don't see what the deal is with faeries. We typically ignore them in wars unless it turns into a long war. I can almost always break faeries at the start of the war (or just nearly), and I can always conquest them at the end of the war (as a dwarf). I mean, sure they're annoying, but run some WPA and WTs and you won't get completely decked. But... they should be able to team up and shell down a player or two, just as the attackers can chain them down. And, they should have some deterrent from being hit. They're really not a short term threat, though.

    Anywho.. 3/6 is too small. Are faeries getting 5/0 ospecs back, or was that an omission? 5/0 and 3/7 with the rest of your changes looks fair to me.
    3/6 is completely playable. If this went through faery would still be the best t/m (by far actually). The reason elf is so squishy is it uses spec defence which is more vulnerable to troop losses and particularly vulnerable to NS. This suggestion would have faery considerably less vulnerable to thieves because they have higher tpa modifiers and elite defence. Suggesting they go to 3/7 without the pop penalty is absurd, that is an improvement to the current situation for faery. Faery are ridiculously overpowered in their niche, they should be nerfed in that niche and allowed to be hybrids of some sort. This suggestion is a balanced attempt at that. There shouldn't be a race that is "oh we just ignore them and hope for the best".

    Suggesting that "elves have an advantage because specs are cheaper than elites" is a serious misapprehension of the mechanics. Elite resistance is more than sufficient to make up for the cost.

    In terms of elf being squishy: I play elf now and I don't think I am that squishy and I have pretty great numbers. Fully drafted as A/M I have 22 mod wpa (with mf), 5.5 mod tpa, 65 opa/65 dpa (all out).

    PS. Yes, I believe he is suggesting they get 5 off specs back (they certainly should).
    Last edited by Mal; 24-07-2012 at 05:49.

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    I don't believe dwarves are weak this age either (I play one myself, about 5 base WPA, 90-110 mOPA and 25-35 mDPA). I don't see what is suboptimal about planning on 2 uniques a day. You can certainly run more rax and do 2.5 or 3 (if you can manage to run 95% BE and 30% rax), but it's better and more agreeable (imo) to plan for 2 uniques a day and keep yourself on par with all the orcs and uds (who won't be doing 3 uniques a day). I've gone for 8.5 hour attack times myself, and I was thoroughly disappointed. As soon as my first batch of land came in, my attack times dropped and as war progressed my BE dropped... An extra unique in a mintime war is just not worth 30% of my buildings and having to wake up in the middle of the night to send out my attacks. Anyhow, that's enough defending myself.

    Flat income mods pidgeon hole you. Most attackers run low PPA, which benefits you less than running high PPA or playing a bank. Not all of us want to run 10 PPA in war and build defenses to protect those peasants from ops.


    As for next age, I plan on running A/M elf myself, assuming things don't get changed too much (slightly more than 65 OPA though, hah). An A/M elf would naturally have a hole for NS-es and thief ops (dwarves have a slight edge in this with Clear Sight). However, a T/M elf shouldn't. Yes, your dspecs are more vulnerable to OPs, but you're a t/m for christ sake. If they're trying mass nightmares or NS-es (and they should mostly fail) on a t/m, then your KD is already lost.

    Faery should be evened out, yes, but if you cut them down to a 6 max defense unit and leave attackers with 7-9 offense, they're going to be played like they have a 6 max defense unit (aka, a halfling).


    Edit: A faery with +25% wages, no ToG, and no thief damage bonus would be severely hampered in the bank/aiding role (which is their third). Their econ would be considerably diminished, and thus they'd just be OP bots. Or they can sacrifice more defense to maintain a little econ (or they can run some offense with those ospecs). Don't forget about the intangibles. Faeries bring a lot to the table on the defensive side, as well (oh, and without FoK their science would also be severely diminished).
    Last edited by Zobo; 24-07-2012 at 06:32.

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