Surgestions for changes.

[Hill]

1) UDs need some king of nerfing...

At this time there are 2058 UDs on server, 732 orcs, 506 dwarf with half of them seemingly run as some sort of hybrid and 372 Avians...

Why this huge imbalance amongst the heavy attacker races???

I think the main issue is plague. Plague is severelly powerfull and then only way to get rid fast enough is to run to many hospitals or potentially use a lot of mana keep casting NB. The no growth effect meens that UD kds have a natural regrowing advantage in war and can rebuild econ, while enemies are stuck from plague... chained enemies can't maintain buildings to get rid of plague, and casting NB till you cure is not gonna happen with no guilds. And TMs hardly runs a lot of hospitals, but UDs have a natural advantage in taking these down since once plagued the negative defence mod meens more guys will break and chain becomes way to cheap... Taking down a TM should cost something in form of tempo for UDs just like it does for all other races...

I know UDs have a negative sci mod, and this is an issue in relation to fighting other heavy attackers... They will have lower gains and/or higher attacktimes than other 3 races because of that. But looking beyond plague, do they not have enough compensation for this? They have huge casualtyreduction which meens that even without the plagueeffect they would be better than other HA's for sustainability in long wars. They have conversion which meens their simple o specs, which they get credits for becomes the strongest attacking unit in the game and finally they do not require food, which meens both that they never lose strenght from starvation but more important they can compensate for loss of sci mods compared to orc and avian by having higher quantity of warrelated buildings... IMHO UD have more than enough compensation for the negative sci mod long before considering plague effects...

UDs need a nerfing. Or plague needs a nerfing.

My surgestion would be to make defending/curing plague more easy. Ideas would be:

1) NB blessing (or new spell spell specific for plague) protects against plague (becomes more rune expensive and lower duration)
2) New instant spell cures plague emidiatelly (and 25 % chance to cure is removed from NB)
or
3) Plague doesn't effect province defence + UDs get another minor nerfing.

[Hill]

Second change I would propose is on game mechanism... I would surgest that the troops away from home doesn't desert is removed.

Playing heavy attacker has become way to easy. You can not use any advantage in experience, calculation skills or adaptability to changes really to get any sort of advantage... Everyone knows You run as much defence as need releasing once you are chained, and then you can keep pretty much all your offence as long as you keep having incoming acres. With trend of game already being that skilled players are loosing all advantages and only activity counts for anything, I think just having one point taking game in opposite directiong would be a really nice change. Fact is if troops away from home deserted just like eveything else a proper balance for armycomposition have to be calculated and this would favour the more skilled player imho. Making desertion count for troops out would reallly be a huge improvement on game mechanism I think.

[gergnub]

the imbalance does not tell the truth.

and no.

[Palem]

Undead are easy to play. Avian are hard to play. Avian are better than undead.

Popularity is not a good indicator of strength.

[Hill]

Palem then explain that UD is not signifantly more popular in ghettoes, but most top war kds base their Heavy attacker core on UDs... Ofc all races have their strenghts and weaknesses, but I think there must be some reason why most organised war kds prefer to go with an UD set up.

[Persain]

i agree with palem, but im curious about

With trend of game already being that skilled players are loosing all advantages and only activity counts for anything, I think just having one point taking game in opposite directiong would be a really nice change.

care too explain more? Because if

Everyone knows You run as much defence as need releasing once you are chained, and then you can keep pretty much all your offence as long as you keep having incoming acres.

how is there less skill required in the game? Just learn to beat that strategy and u win

[Palem]

Palem then explain that UD is not signifantly more popular in ghettoes, but most top war kds base their Heavy attacker core on UDs... Ofc all races have their strenghts and weaknesses, but I think there must be some reason why most organised war kds prefer to go with an UD set up.

I already said why. Undead is easy to play. Most war kds really don't feel like setting alarms and waking up every 7 hours to make hits and make the best out of Avian. Undead provides a decent race with very little time investment.

[goodz]

Also most warring KD's don't run optimal builds. They run a mixture of races that they think will make it easy to find wars.

Undead have a niche that works, and thats running high offense and getting chained first in war will your other provinces get unbreakable.

A top KD running Humans or Avians should really be able to beat an undead kd I would think. I don't see much of any undeads in land/nw charts and that is a more true indicator of racial power. (not the top land nw, but look at the top 10 KD's)

[Hill]

Really goodz? You base on kds that have 2-3 wars max pr age and where most are nappped with anything in range half the time?

I would look at what most top warring kds run, and imho they mostly run ud bcs it is easy to play and you need extreme activity to keep up with them (which is sometimes not possible either way)...

But lets do look at top war kds: Massk (UD), wsk (UD majority), modesty (UD majority), BoB (UD), Ex nihilo Haj (UD), TWP (half UD), Fearless (UD), ChemStruct (UD), Plaidovia (half UD), Ancient Spartans (half UD) that is 10 out of top 12 war kds all running UD...
Cats, roughknecks, gangnam, exodus, Force, ?, melee weapons to name but a few larger 25 player warkds all run uds. I play as part of monarchy in a 25 player war kd and having a 25 player warkd in range that does not run ud attacker core is a rare exeption. Basicly every 25 player warkd in range always run UD...

...But lets say UDs are in no way OPed, despite higher durability in war, despite having more buildings availible, despite having the strongest unit in the game, despite easy and cheap conversion to this unit and despite plague. It does not change the fact that there is a huge imbalance on peoples pick of heavy attackers races and it makes the game more uniform. Finding another kind of challenge as well is really hard. especially if kd is not strong and active enough to go up against the best hybrid based honor/war kds like wsk and cats (oh yeah, they ALSO run UD core)...

...UD is still overrepresentated on the server and especially amongst good warkds. I hardly se that changing any time soon unless something is done about plague/all their strenghts. But I would like to hear some concrete arguments what would make other races stronger for a midrange warkd? It seems that argument is beyond the best ones around bcs they ll seem to run UD.

[crease]

plague is the big difference for sure... undeads would be terrible without it. Kd's pick undead to counter plague, its the gamechanger, undead will be broken so long as plague exists. Having non undead core against undead core renders any advantages in wpa ur kd had as useless, and just 1 bad run of nb and ur screwed for 12 hours with zero pop growth lower income AND lower defense.... i play an orc and in the WSK vs SPGC war just ended, i did not reflect a single spell cast on me in a 12 day war, because i had to spend every bit of my mana on nbing the plague. If that isnt broken what is?

As for suggesting a fix.... i honestly don't care, war kds will just keep playing undead till it is unplayable or plague is gone.

[Palem]

Really goodz? You base on kds that have 2-3 wars max pr age and where most are nappped with anything in range half the time?

I would look at what most top warring kds run, and imho they mostly run ud bcs it is easy to play and you need extreme activity to keep up with them (which is sometimes not possible either way)...

But lets do look at top war kds: Massk (UD), wsk (UD majority), modesty (UD majority), BoB (UD), Ex nihilo Haj (UD), TWP (half UD), Fearless (UD), ChemStruct (UD), Plaidovia (half UD), Ancient Spartans (half UD) that is 10 out of top 12 war kds all running UD...
Cats, roughknecks, gangnam, exodus, Force, ?, melee weapons to name but a few larger 25 player warkds all run uds. I play as part of monarchy in a 25 player war kd and having a 25 player warkd in range that does not run ud attacker core is a rare exeption. Basicly every 25 player warkd in range always run UD...

...But lets say UDs are in no way OPed, despite higher durability in war, despite having more buildings availible, despite having the strongest unit in the game, despite easy and cheap conversion to this unit and despite plague. It does not change the fact that there is a huge imbalance on peoples pick of heavy attackers races and it makes the game more uniform. Finding another kind of challenge as well is really hard. especially if kd is not strong and active enough to go up against the best hybrid based honor/war kds like wsk and cats (oh yeah, they ALSO run UD core)...

...UD is still overrepresentated on the server and especially amongst good warkds. I hardly se that changing any time soon unless something is done about plague/all their strenghts. But I would like to hear some concrete arguments what would make other races stronger for a midrange warkd? It seems that argument is beyond the best ones around bcs they ll seem to run UD.

Those kds have no interest in making their provs as good as they could possibly get. Those kds only interest is getting into/winning wars.

[chalsdk]

Get real and get some age XP - Get more hospitals OR why not sugest that hospitals are more effective vs plauge ? Dont fix an none broken thing with a broken solution! This wil NEVER be done - not becourse I Run the game, but becourse I know how age changes are done(or not done - like sugesting new rases).

If anything sugest that one personality is Immune to plauge! or that hospitals is 1% more effective.

UD are pupular becourse they are very easy to play at, AND are undead, alt will alwas play them becourse they are UD. Things do change, they had TOG once, but the basics dont, and that is what ur asking here.

[Elurin]

Palem is, as usual, clueless about game mechanics, but pretty cute while doing so. We played ud 3 of last 4 ages, and beat every top kd setup we faced with it. Undeads are a great race for warring unless you have to spend a lot of the age growing and pumping and keep up with top growth. Thus the race is relative to what segment of game you would like to play in (that determines avg growth over age) and not whether you want a good prov or not. That said, your statement about as good a prov as possible is ridiculous as by that logic no one would ever enter war for any other reason than to gain honor, as that's the only aspect of a prov that has a potential of improving through warring. One day you will realize that people play games and hobbys to have fun.

Now, the reason that undeads is better than orc is only partly plague, it is more the ops though. As someone said, heavy attacker is terribly boring as off is nearly impossible to kill - this goes for undeads and orcs. Out of the 2 being able to op and having TW are larger advantages than plague. We ran orcs last age before the improvement, they were fine then and is really good now, vs. anything but an UD core they're probably better. Even so, a heavy sci orc kd would probably win vs. undeads.

[crease]

Palem is, as usual, clueless about game mechanics, but pretty cute while doing so. We played ud 3 of last 4 ages, and beat every top kd setup we faced with it. Undeads are a great race for warring unless you have to spend a lot of the age growing and pumping and keep up with top growth. Thus the race is relative to what segment of game you would like to play in (that determines avg growth over age) and not whether you want a good prov or not. That said, your statement about as good a prov as possible is ridiculous as by that logic no one would ever enter war for any other reason than to gain honor, as that's the only aspect of a prov that has a potential of improving through warring. One day you will realize that people play games and hobbys to have fun.

Now, the reason that undeads is better than orc is only partly plague, it is more the ops though. As someone said, heavy attacker is terribly boring as off is nearly impossible to kill - this goes for undeads and orcs. Out of the 2 being able to op and having TW are larger advantages than plague. We ran orcs last age before the improvement, they were fine then and is really good now, vs. anything but an UD core they're probably better. Even so, a heavy sci orc kd would probably win vs. undeads.

TW is usually a plague on undead in the ghetto, kids go OMGOMG 2K MOAR DEF, then get hit twice and have no econ for rest of war. Ops wouldn't be a massive factor without plague, cause extra gains offset LL capability, greed/storm/fb loss is a nuisance but orcs can just intra-MV no problems. The science penalty on undeads makes them less useful for MV'ing than an orc :)

Get real and get some age XP - Get more hospitals OR why not sugest that hospitals are more effective vs plauge ? Dont fix an none broken thing with a broken solution! This wil NEVER be done - not becourse I Run the game, but becourse I know how age changes are done(or not done - like sugesting new rases).

If anything sugest that one personality is Immune to plauge! or that hospitals is 1% more effective.

UD are pupular becourse they are very easy to play at, AND are undead, alt will alwas play them becourse they are UD. Things do change, they had TOG once, but the basics dont, and that is what ur asking here.

Bless you sir. Explain to me how hospitals counter plague when you are 100% unbuilt most ticks in war -.- Tell me to get some age experience please. It takes such minimal effort to stunt econ of an attacker facing an undead core, and the free damage it can do to a mage hybrid is unrivalled.

As for you knowing changes... fog was removed cause it was broken, so don't spurt crap.

[Bishop]

LL is not affected by any racial nerfs or bonuses.