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Thread: Rand Paul for president?

  1. #31
    Forum Addict John Snowstorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JinXy View Post
    It doesn't when the population is not informed. Governments will always find ways around the system. But while the gold standard lasts, there was fiscal restrain on the government.
    Except there wasn't. Governments had no problem driving nations into ruinous debt when the currency was actualy made of gold, let alone just being tied to some paper and then fractionally reserved.

    value has gone up from $250 to $1330. Or if you want to go back further, it was originally at $20 and $35. What does that prove?
    Only that gold is a faith based commodity the same as paper. Lashing one to the back of the other does nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    Except there wasn't. Governments had no problem driving nations into ruinous debt when the currency was actualy made of gold, let alone just being tied to some paper and then fractionally reserved.
    When paper was backed by gold, it is very obvious what the government is doing. Debt and deficits become obvious.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    Only that gold is a faith based commodity the same as paper. Lashing one to the back of the other does nothing.
    It does not matter what you or I think about gold or fiat paper currency. History repeats. The market switches between gold and paper, and right now we're in a period when the market is preferring gold over paper.

  3. #33
    Forum Addict John Snowstorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JinXy View Post
    When paper was backed by gold, it is very obvious what the government is doing. Debt and deficits become obvious.
    Because the populous in the past were far more clued in to the economic dealings of nations... oh wait, that's not true at all. In fact you have more abstractions and work arounds that joe public doesn't understand with a gold standard currency than without.

    It does not matter what you or I think about gold or fiat paper currency. History repeats. The market switches between gold and paper, and right now we're in a period when the market is preferring gold over paper.
    It doesn't matter whether its gold or paper, both are clearly fiat unless you're a complete imbecile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    Because the populous in the past were far more clued in to the economic dealings of nations... oh wait, that's not true at all. In fact you have more abstractions and work arounds that joe public doesn't understand with a gold standard currency than without.
    Dude, it becomes obvious to other nations who are monitoring ur central bank. That's why gold was leaving the US in record volumes in the years leading up to 1971, and Nixon was forced to default and cut off USD's ties to gold. Of course the people on the streets will be clueless as usual.



    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    It doesn't matter whether its gold or paper, both are clearly fiat unless you're a complete imbecile.
    What's your point? My point is that the market will go to where it wants to go. And historically, they alternate between fiat and gold. There's a good book on this written by an anthropologist: Debt: the first 5000 years.

    Right now is the period when the market is moving away from fiat and towards gold.

  5. #35
    Forum Addict John Snowstorm's Avatar
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    How do you still bang on about gold and fiat as if gold isn't fiat?

    It's like talking to a wall.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    How do you still bang on about gold and fiat as if gold isn't fiat?

    It's like talking to a wall.
    you have no other points to make? Look up the definition of fiat money. It's your way of defining gold, but it's not my way and it's not the market's way of defining.. Fine, i'll change the word 'fiat' to 'paper'. Does it matter?

    Do you get my point that the market switches between paper and gold throughout history? Cos that's the whole point that I've been making from the start.
    Last edited by JinXy; 25-10-2013 at 06:34.

  7. #37
    Forum Addict John Snowstorm's Avatar
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    Fiat money is money without intrinsic value, based on faith.

    Gold is fiat.

    Have you got it through your thick skull that it doesn't matter whether it switches or not since both have the same underlying premise?

    Wow, this is the problem with paulites.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    Fiat money is money without intrinsic value, based on faith.

    Gold is fiat.
    Since you want to get into arguments about definitions:

    Fiat money has been defined variously as:

    -any money declared by a government to be legal tender.
    -state-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.
    -money without intrinsic value.


    Look at the SECOND definition. But Does it matter whether you call gold fiat????? Do I care??? Does the market care???? Which part of the human population switching between gold and paper backed by nothing, do you not understand?

    You've made your point that you have a different definition of fiat. So be it. You have nothing else to argue, and therefore pick on that silly argument about what fiat means?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    Have you got it through your thick skull that it doesn't matter whether it switches or not since both have the same underlying premise?

    Wow, this is the problem with paulites.
    This is the problem with you arguing for the sake of arguing. What do you mean it doesn't matter? What does not matter? It matters for me as an investor. What is your point?
    Last edited by JinXy; 25-10-2013 at 09:09.

  9. #39
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JinXy View Post
    Right now is the period when the market is moving away from fiat and towards gold.
    JinXy that is utter nonsense

    to give you an historic example:

    when the British moved towards the gold standard it wasn't a market move. It was a government decision by the British conservative politician Winston Churchill. I still consider that the worst decision he ever made, because it caused rampant deflation in the British economy and really ruined the British economy. If the British hadn't been propped up by the Lend-Lease signed by United States president Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the British would have been destitute now. Luckily Winston Churchill also made some good decisions, as a liberal he signed some labor market reform bills that helped lower the unemployment, but Winston's wisest policy ever was to defy Nazi-Germany. Churchill probably wouldn't have been able to sign that employment bill, if it hadn't been for the violence caused by the British Union of Fascists at the Olympia Rally, but heck you have to give him so credit for signing that bill at all.

    all history aside, when countries move towards a gold standard it never is a market move
    Last edited by freemehul; 25-10-2013 at 10:56.
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    JinXy that is utter nonsense

    to give you an historic example:

    when the British moved towards the gold standard it wasn't a market move. It was a government decision by the British conservative politician Winston Churchill. I still consider that the worst decision he ever made, because it caused rampant deflation in the British economy and really ruined the British economy. If the British hadn't been propped up by the Lend-Lease signed by United States president Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the British would have been destitute now. Luckily Winston Churchill also made some good decisions, as a liberal he signed some labor market reform bills that helped lower the unemployment, but Winston's wisest policy ever was to defy Nazi-Germany. Churchill probably wouldn't have been able to sign that employment bill, if it hadn't been for the violence caused by the British Union of Fascists at the Olympia Rally, but heck you have to give him so credit for signing that bill at all.

    all history aside, when countries move towards a gold standard it never is a market move
    I know the history. You're telling me that gold moved from $250 to $1350 between 2000 and 2013, not because of the market? You're the one talking utter nonsense.

  11. #41
    Forum Addict John Snowstorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JinXy View Post
    Fiat money has been defined variously as:

    -any money declared by a government to be legal tender.
    -state-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.
    -money without intrinsic value.
    -3/10 for direct C&P from wikipedia

    As to your feeble argument; you could never convert every piece of currency to its gold value because there was always far more currency than actual gold so your choice of definition is poor to begin with.

    You have yet to make any meaningful distinction between a paper backed currency and a gold backed currency on a meta economic analysis level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    -3/10 for direct C&P from wikipedia
    Of course it's copied from wikipedia. I told you it's the definition of fiat by the population.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    As to your feeble argument; you could never convert every piece of currency to its gold value because there was always far more currency than actual gold so your choice of definition is poor to begin with.
    And that was why it was obvious where inflation come from, under the gold standard: Over-printing of paper currency. I don't see what point you're trying to make with this statement though.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Snowstorm View Post
    You have yet to make any meaningful distinction between a paper backed currency and a gold backed currency on a meta economic analysis level.
    I can if I want to, but why should I make that distinction?
    Last edited by JinXy; 26-10-2013 at 02:58.

  13. #43
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JinXy View Post
    I know the history. You're telling me that gold moved from $250 to $1350 between 2000 and 2013, not because of the market? You're the one talking utter nonsense.
    do not compare market values for gold, with a gold standard for currencies, those aren't the same and you are implying that they are. Also note that you aren't taking inflation into consideration, so the 1350 dollars would actually be 837 dollars in terms of the year 2000. Also note that the year 2000 is the wrong year to take for an index, as gold was incredibly undervalued in the market in that year, which for the greater part did not have anything to do with currency but the fact that gold is used in the manufacturing of computers. Since 2000 there've been at least 1.3 billion computers manufactured in the world.

    I say to you again JinXy, you are talking utter nonsense. All you do is stack fallacy upon fallacy. And what is more I do believe you lied. You are not speaking the truth when you say you knew about that piece of history. If you did, you would have known you were in the wrong. You are ignorant and deceitful.
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  14. #44
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JinXy View Post
    I can if I want to,
    More lies! You can't!
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    do not compare market values for gold, with a gold standard for currencies, those aren't the same and you are implying that they are. Also note that you aren't taking inflation into consideration, so the 1350 dollars would actually be 837 dollars in terms of the year 2000. Also note that the year 2000 is the wrong year to take for an index, as gold was incredibly undervalued in the market in that year, which for the greater part did not have anything to do with currency but the fact that gold is used in the manufacturing of computers. Since 2000 there've been at least 1.3 billion computers manufactured in the world.

    I say to you again JinXy, you are talking utter nonsense. All you do is stack fallacy upon fallacy. And what is more I do believe you lied. You are not speaking the truth when you say you knew about that piece of history. If you did, you would have known you were in the wrong. You are ignorant and deceitful.
    What on earth do you mean when u say i compare market values for gold with a gold standard for currencies??? All i've ever said in this thread are these:
    1) gold is an honest money
    2) the market switches between gold and paper from time to time. (did i say the market switch to the gold standard? No. I was talking about INVESTMENT and PROTECTION of wealth.)

    Which part do you not understand? Do you realise that you are too eager to attack, and therefore did not read my points carefully?

    Why can't I used the year 2000 as the starting point for the index? Do you know that mine production has been rising year after year and kept pace with industrial usage of gold? Why then do you think gold has risen so much? Of course it's because of worldwide CURRENCY turmoils.

    You are the one who argues using gut feelings. Please, kindly read this stats i compiled here: http://silvernjin.blogspot.sg/2012/1...ped-by_16.html

    In the past decade, gold has outperformed stocks massively. Even the legendary stock investor warren buffett couldn't keep up with inflation. Why do you think gold is outperforming stocks? Because the INDUSTRIAL demand for gold is so great? Not a chance. It's because of CURRENCY turmoils. I've mentioned before that the world switches between paper and gold (who cares whether it is by the government or by the market???? That's what concerns you and you try to use that to argue against me, as if i'm concerned about that). Read Debt: The first 5000 years to enlighten yourself.

    You are too eager to attack. Just look at your first comment. The word "utter nonsense" is glaring. Please chill and take a step back and understand what people are saying.

    I say to you freemehul. Don't make up your own assumptions about what I'm saying, and then turn around and attack your own assumptions.
    Last edited by JinXy; 26-10-2013 at 16:24.

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