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Thread: Landlust based attacker

  1. #1
    Post Fiend Katsuni's Avatar
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    Landlust based attacker

    I'm just returning from a hiatus, and I'm wondering how viable is it these days for a LL mage to "attack" via such?

    As I'm looking at things, the elves seem to be the "best" for this, as spell damage % modifications don't seem to apply to LL, and this would leave a fairly respectable dpnw to the point that the elf wouldn't be worth attacking, but would continually rake in a moderate amount of acres, while still being able to defend themselves from mages in kind.

    Now, while this is a nice theory and all... in practice, some things have shifted considerably, especially the idea of networth based gains instead of land based gains. I'm not 100% certain, just yet, how effective this really is of a notion any longer, so any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated =3

  2. #2
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    LL gain is not affected by networth difference.. however the success/fail rate of LL spell depends on many factor, networth difference being one of it..

    Here from the guide,

    Effect: Captures a small and random (up to 1.35%) of the enemy land.

    Considering from : [the difficulty of LL spell + the mwpa difference + networth difference] which all determines the success rate AND the high cost of runes and stealth spent = a maximum of 1.35% from target's acre > is not worth it.

  3. #3
    Post Fiend Katsuni's Avatar
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    Alright, so if we assume an elf mystic, with 5 mana/tick in war, this would be 2.241% of land under ideal circumstances (no drop off between lusts); with a relatively ideal target, a bit of variation in the spell, the occasional miss and so on, let's just assume around 2.0% of a target's land is transferred per hour which is unlikely to be taken back due to higher defenses.

    Does this result in a theoretical net gain under ideal conditions?

    If the answer is no, as is suggested, then why is the spell as weak as it is that it's useless even under the most perfect possible circumstances to use it in? Would this not suggest that it might be in need of being looked at balance-wise for a minor buff, maybe up to 1.5%?

    If it is valuable in it's current incarnation, under the current setup for the game as it is, even if it's under limited circumstances, then I'd like to see if I can work with that next age, but only if it's not a dead end strategy due to poor design.

    I guess the real question is, is this a useful spell under the most perfect, ideal circumstances, or is it simply poorly balanced and in need of a balance tweak? The answer is kind of a one or the other choice given what's been suggested thus far.

  4. #4
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    LL is extremely random, with a low gain of 1 acre. That randomness makes it difficult to use over more consistent spells, but LL is still useful as a tool for acre control, or as a win-more spell.

    For obvious reasons it's best to stack LL acres on provinces that are already secure. Faeries can defend new acres better than Elf, and get better utilization out of those extra acres due to thief protection and ToG.

    Using LL for chaining early isn't very useful, because there are a lot of places mana+runes can be used to better effect early in war, like NM, Nado, FB, and of course MS coverage. LL is also very difficult to cast on pumped provinces, so it is practically necessary to target fat attackers or soften a target with AW before landlusting.

    People have proposed normalizing LL gains for a long time now.
    Last edited by idiocy; 10-05-2013 at 01:56.

  5. #5
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    LL is a very good spell and very good source of acres for different types of provs/situations. However, it's a kd effort. Any prov can do it well if the kd does it right. If you're an opper doing it make sure to not make yourself unable to do other important ops or get op'd yourself.
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  6. #6
    Post Fiend Katsuni's Avatar
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    Ah okeis, so it's not nearly as bad as I first was hearing =3

    It is a little bit too random though, it sounds like, for something so expensive, so perhaps it could use a bit of a more consistent average power level, but otherwise is still kinda useful it sounds like.

    I could live with that.

    It does sound like it may be better to put on a faery even if there's a lower success rate, just for the better use of the land and stronger defenses against thieves and physical attacks.

    Hrm, this may be a moot point depending on how the next age goes anyway, but thank you for the insight on how to make it actually viable! ^.^

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    The randomness really isn't an issue since your doing a decent amount of them(its like prop in that way). Randomness is an issue when you only have a limited amount of times to do things(like MV or NB) since then bad luck can have a really bad affect. Can discuss the situational uses of it on IRC if you want(<---bored). But in general, its very underused outside of top kd's.
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  8. #8
    Post Fiend Katsuni's Avatar
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    Sure why not, if you're still around. Where would I be going? XD

    EDIT: And like literally less than a minute after posting that, something interrupts that I have to go take care of instead. Figures. >.>;

  9. #9
    I like to post Landro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Alright, so if we assume an elf mystic, with 5 mana/tick in war, this would be 2.241% of land under ideal circumstances (no drop off between lusts); with a relatively ideal target, a bit of variation in the spell, the occasional miss and so on, let's just assume around 2.0% of a target's land is transferred per hour which is unlikely to be taken back due to higher defenses.

    Does this result in a theoretical net gain under ideal conditions?

    If the answer is no, as is suggested, then why is the spell as weak as it is that it's useless even under the most perfect possible circumstances to use it in? Would this not suggest that it might be in need of being looked at balance-wise for a minor buff, maybe up to 1.5%?

    If it is valuable in it's current incarnation, under the current setup for the game as it is, even if it's under limited circumstances, then I'd like to see if I can work with that next age, but only if it's not a dead end strategy due to poor design.

    I guess the real question is, is this a useful spell under the most perfect, ideal circumstances, or is it simply poorly balanced and in need of a balance tweak? The answer is kind of a one or the other choice given what's been suggested thus far.
    2.241 * 24 hours = 53.784% of an equal sized enemy's land per day. but that's the max. You're more likely to get about half that so let's say 27%
    An Orc would easily take 15% of an equal sized opponent's land. Hitting 2x/day an Orc would get 30%
    And this assumes single taps by the Orc and 100% spell success for the Elf.
    This is my province. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    My province is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
    My province, without me, is useless. Without my province, I am useless.
    I must attack hard with my province. I must attack harder than my enemy who is trying to pk me. I must pk him before he pk's me. I will...

  10. #10
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    There's also the curious little issue of the fact that it doesn't get harder for that Orc to attack with every acres he gains and the defending prov doesn't suddenly get harder and harder to attack with every acre he loses (yea yea, gbp isn't as significant as someone gaining wpa against a LL run).


    Trust me, running an elf with the sole purpose of LL'ing isn't a good idea.

  11. #11
    Post Fiend Katsuni's Avatar
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    Well, here's the thing that's bothering me... it's not "just" about acres taken per day. Yes, an orc will be raking in more acres, but they'll also be hemmoraging acres, be exceedingly weak against fireballs meaning they won't be able to replace lost elites no matter how many credits they have, and if their army is caught home for even an hour or two it can be crippled.

    In contrast, a LL build won't really be losing many acres; that orc that gets 3-4 hits in per army return, will also get hit back for 3-4 hits in kind, which doesn't really mean much in equal trading. The elf doing LL would be unlikely to get hit, forcing the enemy to hit someone who's more likely to be covered by GBP. Additionally, that orc gets slowly weaker over the course of the war, growing progressively worn down as long as the T/M's do their job and keep them from recovering, whereas the elf will keep gaining in peasants, economy and so on, wherein the only "loss" is, well, WPA. With a fair number of guilds and lots of channeling science, that can be moderately mitigated in how bad that becomes, especially as an elf with a large boost as well. Is it really this big of an issue for an elf to lose a little bit of WPA? Sure, you might end up going from like 16 to 10, but that's still an awful lot compared to the average orc, and only occurs if you've managed to gain an awful lot of acres from the enemy team without losing them in return =P

    As such... it's not as simple as "acres intake per day", because there are so many other factors which have to be taken into account as well. Even just the "acres in VS acres out" comparison makes it difficult to be certain if it's even remotely viable... less in, but less out in kind. Toss in the growing economy rather than a bleeding out over time, and it just makes it more confusing. The added T/M defense also complicates matters.

    I dunno, I just don't see this as being THAT basic of a "orc does more landgrab per day" unless you were looking at a kingdom of like 25 orcs against 25 other orcs, wherein, yeah, then you can just look at it as a full 3-4 tap back and forth all day. But we don't see 25 orc kingdoms for a reason =P

    In a straight up fight? The orc would probably win since it'd be killing off defspecs faster than the elf could be killing elites, which would eventually lead to being able to double-tap the elf and that will then lead to triple and quad tapping. In a full war? Conditions are significantly different, so I don't really know how well that works in comparison.

    Anyway, rawr. Still debating it. =P
    Last edited by Katsuni; 11-05-2013 at 03:11.

  12. #12
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    Can't begin to tell you how many elves I've dropped below 1 wpa this age using AW... In the current climate elf is either a very situational choice or simply the wrong one.

    Compared to the orc example, even when it has no pop it can still stock those credits and take in aid. Its unlikely any orc can be completely taken out of a fight unless the owner is very inactive.
    Last edited by Spikey; 11-05-2013 at 09:28. Reason: English.
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  13. #13
    Forum Fanatic octobrev's Avatar
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    Do it on a faery. Everybody just assumes you have thieves.
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  14. #14
    Post Fiend Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikey View Post
    Can't begin to tell you how many elves I've dropped below 1 wpa this age using AW... In the current climate elf is either a very situational choice or simply the wrong one.

    Compared to the orc example, even when it has no pop it can still stock those credits and take in aid. Its unlikely any orc can be completely taken out of a fight unless the owner is very inactive.
    Yeah... the last time I played an orc that was very much so the case; I'd get hit 10-14 times a day, every day, every war, and still be getting 8x attacks out anyway.

    However, I'd be planning on running about 20%+ WT and a good 3-4 TPA to back it up. It wouldn't prevent a halfling rogue who was determined to waste all their stealth for the entire war on me, but it'd mitigate enough damage that it wouldn't be that bad (I should hope).

    Now herein comes the problem... if orcs are so unkillable, how is this allowed to stand as is over alternate strategies? So far all I've heard is Bishop say once that people obviously just aren't waving them properly, but the question is, how do you properly wave an orc who will only have their army home for 3-5 minutes a day? Yes, you can gradually bleed them down a little bit in power, but not enough to really matter significantly as their offensive power is still around, and losing 1000 acres means nothing to an orc as they have another 1000 incoming from their armies anyway.

    It's possible to permanently remove a mage from a war 100% so that they are no longer a threat at all, but the same isn't really true of an orc except for insanely well organized kingdoms at the very top. This implies that there's a bit of a balance issue in that there's only truly one "right" answer on how to attack, which kind of worries me since the whole point of Utopia was that there were so many options.

    So I guess the question then becomes, is it realistically plausible to keep an elf's mages alive so they can still be useful? Running over 20% WT is almost a must if landlusting, due to the extra land lowering the percentages of land used, probably around 30% early war and just letting the WT stay there as more acres are added.

    I'd like to be useful, I just like to do so in unorthodox manners =P I'd just like to see that, if I have to put in more time and effort to make a very difficult race/personality concept work, that it should at least be even remotely close to effectiveness as a much simpler option. Risk VS reward kinda thing.

  15. #15
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    Elf sucks. All they have is +30% WPA and more mana (for more fails? lol) You might as well pick Fae, Dorf, or Human for a magic province in most spots. Last age Elf was potentially good but difficult to use while Faery was tops.
    Basing your prov around running LL is a bad idea. It doesn't require much difference for a magic specialist to cast LL though, aside from the need for more runes than normal.

    Attacking has been madly overpowered for so long that utopia doesn't want it to change, unfortunately. Now that Orc can't be ambushed if they picked the obvious Tactician personality it's super bad.

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