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Thread: Hostile, Notices, and top kd drama

  1. #1
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    Hostile, Notices, and top kd drama

    I had about enough of the drama in the top politics. So, I'mma lay some **** down on the table and you all can go banana's over it, but I think you need to get your heads out of your *****.

    For now, I want to focus on two topics.

    1) What is a hostile?
    2) What is the proper way/time to serve notice.

    It seems to me that everyone has a different opinion these days on what these two things are and some people even have so many opinions they begin to conflict with themselves on it.

    In light of all the sketchy bull**** pulled JUST THIS AGE, I think you all need to sit down and hash this **** out. I'll vent some examples below of things I've seen in the recent ages... but I think the community needs to discuss the above.

    A kingdom proposing an in-game CF does not mean a hostile is not valid. Lack of attacks coming back from another kingdom does not mean a hostile is not valid. There surely is a point where this becomes a bit much and turns into "poor behavior", in which case another kingdom may not care and wave into the active hostile anyway (also poor behavior, obviously). So WHEN is it ok to hit into someones active hostile? Just before their armies return and their about to wave again? Hell no. Just after an in-game CF was proposed but the other kd just retalled before hand? Seriously? The part that really gets me is the claim after the fact of "we thought you'd want war" or some other such bull**** line. You wanted war you'd not be such a coward.

    If your CF agreement says no notice into hostile/war/eowcf, then you cannot message someone into a hostile and say "your notice starts after this hostile ends". That is effectively serving notice into the hostile/war/eowcf. Come back when your notice can be valid and actually serve it. Don't try and weasel your way out of it.

    Notice is not hostile. The bull**** line of "they tried to dodge us so we doubled them" is... drum roll... bull****. That makes you far lamer than it could ever make them. Call them out for being lame and dodging if THEY instigated a hostile after you noticed them. Fine. Vulture them after. Fine. Hit them during and you're nothing more than pathetic scum.



    There are more. But hey, I'm not naming names or putting faces. I EXPECT the rest of you to have some decency to do the same. This thread is not about the banter over the past. Rather instead its about expecting you to man the **** up for the future. You claim you want better competition in the game, PROVE IT.

    WHAT is a hostile. And HOW do you serve your notices? Most importantly... Are YOU capable of agreeing to act with decency? I'd wager most of you are not.

  2. #2
    007 licence to post Anri's Avatar
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    Ok - How to serve notice

    Notice all 25 provs in opposing KD
    Common courtesy - I also prefer to tell leaders on irc if they are online like an extra courtesy. But id say the 25 ingame mails should be enough and apply in all notices. Til Bishop works out and change game mechanics to functioning ingame notices/cf deals.

    About hostile - Out of time to answer this and i think we would not be able to sort it out without mechanic changes as help
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  3. #3
    Mediator goodz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzerland View Post
    I had about enough of the drama in the top politics. So, I'mma lay some **** down on the table and you all can go banana's over it, but I think you need to get your heads out of your *****.

    For now, I want to focus on two topics.

    1) What is a hostile?
    2) What is the proper way/time to serve notice.

    It seems to me that everyone has a different opinion these days on what these two things are and some people even have so many opinions they begin to conflict with themselves on it.

    In light of all the sketchy bull**** pulled JUST THIS AGE, I think you all need to sit down and hash this **** out. I'll vent some examples below of things I've seen in the recent ages... but I think the community needs to discuss the above.

    A kingdom proposing an in-game CF does not mean a hostile is not valid. Lack of attacks coming back from another kingdom does not mean a hostile is not valid. There surely is a point where this becomes a bit much and turns into "poor behavior", in which case another kingdom may not care and wave into the active hostile anyway (also poor behavior, obviously). So WHEN is it ok to hit into someones active hostile? Just before their armies return and their about to wave again? Hell no. Just after an in-game CF was proposed but the other kd just retalled before hand? Seriously? The part that really gets me is the claim after the fact of "we thought you'd want war" or some other such bull**** line. You wanted war you'd not be such a coward.

    If your CF agreement says no notice into hostile/war/eowcf, then you cannot message someone into a hostile and say "your notice starts after this hostile ends". That is effectively serving notice into the hostile/war/eowcf. Come back when your notice can be valid and actually serve it. Don't try and weasel your way out of it.

    Notice is not hostile. The bull**** line of "they tried to dodge us so we doubled them" is... drum roll... bull****. That makes you far lamer than it could ever make them. Call them out for being lame and dodging if THEY instigated a hostile after you noticed them. Fine. Vulture them after. Fine. Hit them during and you're nothing more than pathetic scum.



    There are more. But hey, I'm not naming names or putting faces. I EXPECT the rest of you to have some decency to do the same. This thread is not about the banter over the past. Rather instead its about expecting you to man the **** up for the future. You claim you want better competition in the game, PROVE IT.

    WHAT is a hostile. And HOW do you serve your notices? Most importantly... Are YOU capable of agreeing to act with decency? I'd wager most of you are not.
    I quite like the idea of siting "notice served when you leave your eow" etc. that way if they leave 1 hour early to wave someone else to hide in hostile etc. at least your notice gets served so you can wave them when that hostile ends.

    We had a similar scenario where a KD ran from hostile to hostile, starting the next hostile before the first one had even ended. We eventually grew frustrated and told them to just count our notice starting from teh end of their hostile. They didn't even complain about it when it was served in this manner. But tbh perhaps the whole notice thing should just go. Its bloody ridiculous all the drama it causes as multiple kingdoms argue over the rights to wave said kingdom.
    Last edited by goodz; 30-05-2013 at 18:51.
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    News Correspondent flutterby's Avatar
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    You know what I'm sick and tired of...... notices and NAPS and CF's in the top. Where the hell did this **** come from? Granted, I've said this before... it's ruining the game. Also, when Anri gave notice to 3 kingdoms at once and Abs... were so 'lame' to have all 3 kingdoms hit him... this was NOT hostile. It was merely, in my opinion, clearing 'relations. Not like any of this is going to change anytime soon....

    But if your agreement says, "no notice in hostile/eowcf" you do not notice in eowcf and sorry Jimmeh... saying "notice is served when you leave your eowcf" is noticing DURING eowcf.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodz View Post
    I quite like the idea of siting "notice served when you leave your eow" etc.
    Then don't agree to not serve notice into hostile/war/eowcf. Your problem is solved. Agree to that, though, and it's just as lame as a deal break.

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  7. #7
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    IMO a hostile stands until either:

    A) A CF is accepted or B) Relations die (If that takes 7 days, it takes 7 days)

  8. #8
    Mediator goodz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzerland View Post
    Then don't agree to not serve notice into hostile/war/eowcf. Your problem is solved. Agree to that, though, and it's just as lame as a deal break.
    It seems stupid to force hyperactivity and logging in if you can just forewarn them. In our scenario it would also be mentioned that the other kingdoms monarch did not complain about notice being served that way when it was served. He just stated they had agreed to a war that would start before our notice expired anyway so the notice didn't matter.

    So perhaps next age we would specifically allow notice to be given in eow/war but timer doesn't start until after the eow/war. Although I think more likely we will just look to limit notice deals / put less restrictions on when/how notice is given.

    But tbh telling someone hey you can count our notice starting from when you leave war seems to let them know right away that your coming for them and they should prepare, and saves you from having to monitor them hourly. The only thing it hinders is a KD's ability to run away from notice. Like I said in our case they had been hostiling a new KD prior to even closing the CF on the old kd. (1x) the other time they were cfed for 2h (although never untagged the hostile) Its just not practical to expect someone to CE you hourly to give notice... At least imo. But like I said the KD did not complain about how notice was served when it was served.
    Last edited by goodz; 30-05-2013 at 19:54.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzerland View Post
    Then don't agree to not serve notice into hostile/war/eowcf. Your problem is solved. Agree to that, though, and it's just as lame as a deal break.
    What is the difference between saying 'Your notice is served, effective 6 hours from now' and sending notice in 6 hours? Me waking up at 2 in the morning? Is that it? Ok, either sounds fine to me :). Functionally, all it means is that you get 6 extra hours of prep time because I've told you an additional 6 hours in advance. It is not 'effectively serving notice in hostile/eowcf', because the notice doesn't begin until that status is resolved.

    Hostiles are NOT determined by ingame relations. If two kingdoms make a deal to stop hitting, they don't get to hide behind a 'hostile' status existing ingame - this is functionally the same as a fakewar. Now we would just be using fakehostiles to around notice/waves. If you're hitting OOH, you probably aren't protected by hostile status either, but it depends. For example, if you have one 2k prov and everyone else is 12k, then you would expect the 2k prov to random, but if half the 12k provs are randoming, it's another story.

    It seems like the better answer is to get rid of notice as a concept (no more worrying about notice into hostile/eowcf/whatever), and just have CFs end at certain dates.
    Last edited by Zauper; 30-05-2013 at 19:58.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
    It seems like the better answer is to get rid of notice as a concept (no more worrying about notice into hostile/eowcf/whatever), and just have CFs end at certain dates.
    This.
    I don't know why kingdoms keep giving away notice deals when they know what it leads to.

  11. #11
    Needs to get out more DHaran's Avatar
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    Because vulturing is still worse than shady notice play. The messaging all 25 prov thing for notice is just stupid. I'm sorry, but you don't have to be online for me to issue you notice. If I notice a prov in game marked as a S or M, that's a valid notice, I don't give a single **** if you're online or not. If I'm in a good mood, I'll do a dragon notice, which is probably the most efficient method.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodz View Post
    It seems stupid to force hyperactivity and logging in if you can just forewarn them. In our scenario it would also be mentioned that the other kingdoms monarch did not complain about notice being served that way when it was served. He just stated they had agreed to a war that would start before our notice expired anyway so the notice didn't matter.

    So perhaps next age we would specifically allow notice to be given in eow/war but timer doesn't start until after the eow/war. Although I think more likely we will just look to limit notice deals / put less restrictions on when/how notice is given.

    But tbh telling someone hey you can count our notice starting from when you leave war seems to let them know right away that your coming for them and they should prepare, and saves you from having to monitor them hourly. The only thing it hinders is a KD's ability to run away from notice. Like I said in our case they had been hostiling a new KD prior to even closing the CF on the old kd. (1x) the other time they were cfed for 2h (although never untagged the hostile) Its just not practical to expect someone to CE you hourly to give notice... At least imo. But like I said the KD did not complain about how notice was served when it was served.
    I don't really care if that kd complained or not. That's not the point. The point is, if you agree to not give notice into hostile/war/eowcf then you don't give notice into hostile/war/eowcf, period. Saying your going to notice someone is not noticing them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
    What is the difference between saying 'Your notice is served, effective 6 hours from now' and sending notice in 6 hours? Me waking up at 2 in the morning? Is that it? Ok, either sounds fine to me :). Functionally, all it means is that you get 6 extra hours of prep time because I've told you an additional 6 hours in advance. It is not 'effectively serving notice in hostile/eowcf', because the notice doesn't begin until that status is resolved.
    The difference is that at the time of the notice being given (6 hours in advance but into an active hostile in your example) is a breach of the agreement. If the agreement states you cannot notice into hostile then you cannot notice into hostile. You can certainly tell them you're going to notice them, but until you actually notice them your notice is not valid without deal breaking. Everyone up in the top likes to word play. Word play is lame. You make an agreement, you stick to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
    Hostiles are NOT determined by ingame relations. If two kingdoms make a deal to stop hitting, they don't get to hide behind a 'hostile' status existing ingame - this is functionally the same as a fakewar. Now we would just be using fakehostiles to around notice/waves. If you're hitting OOH, you probably aren't protected by hostile status either, but it depends. For example, if you have one 2k prov and everyone else is 12k, then you would expect the 2k prov to random, but if half the 12k provs are randoming, it's another story.
    I see you fail to mention what does define a hostile. Have an idea in mind?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
    It seems like the better answer is to get rid of notice as a concept (no more worrying about notice into hostile/eowcf/whatever), and just have CFs end at certain dates.
    I will just straight up boldly say that the political top are too cowardly/afraid to do this. I'm already working to convince the kingdom I play with of moving in this direction. I'll get back to you on how it gets accepted.Notices are just a super safe way to play but as the player base and competition diminishes kingdoms continue to get shadier and pull some rather ridiculous stunts.
    Quote Originally Posted by idiocy View Post
    This.
    I don't know why kingdoms keep giving away notice deals when they know what it leads to.
    One word. Vultures.
    Quote Originally Posted by DHaran View Post
    Because vulturing is still worse than shady notice play. The messaging all 25 prov thing for notice is just stupid. I'm sorry, but you don't have to be online for me to issue you notice. If I notice a prov in game marked as a S or M, that's a valid notice, I don't give a single **** if you're online or not. If I'm in a good mood, I'll do a dragon notice, which is probably the most efficient method.
    I don't know anyone that cares about the enemy being online to get notice or not. We're talking about courtesy vs reality. So you message a monarch OR a steward? Sounds random. I suppose you also don't give a **** about courtesy?

  13. #13
    Needs to get out more DHaran's Avatar
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    Well, I would pretty much always notice the monarch unless I spoke to someone on IRC directly, but my main point was the expectation to message all 25 provs annoys me. We should just all adopt dragon notices and we'll all be better off. It's dated, can't be bull****ted with, and everyone can see it.
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  14. #14
    Veteran jamin's Avatar
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    can we not adopt and work out a way to implement an official ingame thing.
    you can send a cf request, why not a notice request?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezzerland View Post
    The difference is that at the time of the notice being given (6 hours in advance but into an active hostile in your example) is a breach of the agreement. If the agreement states you cannot notice into hostile then you cannot notice into hostile. You can certainly tell them you're going to notice them, but until you actually notice them your notice is not valid without deal breaking. Everyone up in the top likes to word play. Word play is lame. You make an agreement, you stick to it.
    But you're not giving notice in hostile. You're giving notice upon the end of the hostile. That's the point of saying 'when your hostile ends'. How are you giving notice prior to the end of the hostile if the notice doesn't begin prior to the end of the hostile?
    I see you fail to mention what does define a hostile. Have an idea in mind?
    I know it when I see it? It's the same reason why Bishop won't define a fakewar. Generally, hostiles have the following characteristics:
    1) Two kingdoms in war range of each other hitting each other with the intention to war, or trade acres.
    2) A historical grudge
    3) A small kingdom waving up on a larger kingdom.
    4) A full wave looking for acres. Some randoms are possible, but only if those randoms aren't truly occurring in the core of the kingdom. If you have a kd of 24 provs at 8k, and a 2k acre prov, the 2k acre prov could be expected to random. If the 8ks are randoming, you probably aren't hostile with the kingdom you're hitting.
    Retalling retals 3-4 does not a hostile make. Powerplaying is not a hostile, unless it turns into one of the above situations.
    CF offers, general outside knowledge, etc can all change the landscape.
    I will just straight up boldly say that the political top are too cowardly/afraid to do this. I'm already working to convince the kingdom I play with of moving in this direction. I'll get back to you on how it gets accepted.Notices are just a super safe way to play but as the player base and competition diminishes kingdoms continue to get shadier and pull some rather ridiculous stunts.
    Notices are safer, but probably worse for the game. Shrug. Without notices, you would have to be trained up any time you didn't have full existing CFs with all other kds in range.

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