Hostile, Notices, and top kd drama

[flutterby]

But you're not giving notice in hostile. You're giving notice upon the end of the hostile.

So you're giving notice of the notice, Sam I am?

[Palem]

1) What is a hostile?
2) What is the proper way/time to serve notice.

1. Two kds looking at each other from across the room with a whimsical flutter of eyelashes with a palpable sexual chemistry
2. Tea and crumpets. Or a BBQ. OR A formal court hearing overseen by a jury of unbiased individuals all hailing from different countries and if possible, different generations. OR If things get really intense, a quick game of badminton to determine whether or not a hostile is legit.



Or you could just not be a big queef and do whatever you want. If you don't want to be too scummy, don't do anything you think is scummy.

[Ezzerland]

can we not adopt and work out a way to implement an official ingame thing.
you can send a cf request, why not a notice request?

I sure hope it's not implemented in-game. It's a user created toy and user moderated. Not game moderated. The game should work away from it, not toward it, for reasons zauper suggests.

But you're not giving notice in hostile. You're giving notice upon the end of the hostile. That's the point of saying 'when your hostile ends'. How are you giving notice prior to the end of the hostile if the notice doesn't begin prior to the end of the hostile?

It doesn't really matter when it starts. According to the agreement it matters when you give it. You cannot GIVE notice into hostile/war/eowcf. It's quite simple/clear.

I know it when I see it? It's the same reason why Bishop won't define a fakewar. Generally, hostiles have the following characteristics:
1) Two kingdoms in war range of each other hitting each other with the intention to war, or trade acres.
2) A historical grudge
3) A small kingdom waving up on a larger kingdom.
4) A full wave looking for acres. Some randoms are possible, but only if those randoms aren't truly occurring in the core of the kingdom. If you have a kd of 24 provs at 8k, and a 2k acre prov, the 2k acre prov could be expected to random. If the 8ks are randoming, you probably aren't hostile with the kingdom you're hitting.
Retalling retals 3-4 does not a hostile make. Powerplaying is not a hostile, unless it turns into one of the above situations.
CF offers, general outside knowledge, etc can all change the landscape.

You're the FIRST person in the community to admit to a flexible hostile point of view. In EVERY case made public in the last 3 ages, Hostile has been excused via a pre-determined clear cut example. Even references to the old alliance summit meetings in the 20's ages. This needs to be defined. A flexible definition is fine, and preferred, but it NEEDS to be done and agreed upon by the general public.
Now, as an example, I see that giving notice is not an active hostile in your example. Shame. I think I know some people who will definitely claim that no one is allowed to interfere in a conflict that has not been started between two kingdoms yet. WHERE IS MY DIBS, *****.

Notices are safer, but probably worse for the game. Shrug. Without notices, you would have to be trained up any time you didn't have full existing CFs with all other kds in range.

I agree. Unfortunately right now it's annoying making deals that do not include notice clauses.

1. Two kds looking at each other from across the room with a whimsical flutter of eyelashes with a palpable sexual chemistry
2. Tea and crumpets. Or a BBQ. OR A formal court hearing overseen by a jury of unbiased individuals all hailing from different countries and if possible, different generations. OR If things get really intense, a quick game of badminton to determine whether or not a hostile is legit.

Or you could just not be a big queef and do whatever you want. If you don't want to be too scummy, don't do anything you think is scummy.

Hey look, first real troll of the thread. Way to be.

[Zauper]

It doesn't really matter when it starts. According to the agreement it matters when you give it. You cannot GIVE notice into hostile/war/eowcf. It's quite simple/clear.

Per Flutterby's point, you're not giving notice up front, you're giving notice of notice. In any case, you are not giving notice in the hostile/war/eowcf. You're merely telling them that the notice will be effective at the end of that situation. What matters according to the agreement is when the notice is given. But the notice isn't given in advance, the notice is given at the end of hostile, and they are informed about the notice in advance.

You're the FIRST person in the community to admit to a flexible hostile point of view. In EVERY case made public in the last 3 ages, Hostile has been excused via a pre-determined clear cut example. Even references to the old alliance summit meetings in the 20's ages. This needs to be defined. A flexible definition is fine, and preferred, but it NEEDS to be done and agreed upon by the general public.

Everyone else is wrong :P.

There's a reason why I never bothered attending the alliance summits in the 20s and told people that they were a colossal waste of time. You can't box relations up and try to define them. Things are always different from one encounter to the next.

When someone asks you if something is a hostile, you look at the CE and kingdom pages first, then look into the discussion side of things -- you don't just ask them how many hits were exchanged.

Now, as an example, I see that giving notice is not an active hostile in your example. Shame. I think I know some people who will definitely claim that no one is allowed to interfere in a conflict that has not been started between two kingdoms yet. WHERE IS MY DIBS, *****.

Giving notice isn't a hostile. However, it does force the noticed kingdom to train, so I could see them being upset if they then do not get to fight given that it prevents them from continuing to pump which is functionally what happens otherwise.

[Elit]

Ezzerland, every kingdoms make his onw diplo and there cant be some "agreed" rules for all. All idea about notices is because kds in top are very limited not like kds in midle/low rank. they cant war much kds and its stupid to make 5-6 wars per age. For this they make CF deals with notice. If you don't have notice any kd can hit you right after another active hostile and its suck.
In short notice deals are for provide relative fair 1vs1 fight in top. System is very good but past few ages ABS constant abuse it and for this we have so much drama now.

[Ezzerland]

Per Flutterby's point, you're not giving notice up front, you're giving notice of notice. In any case, you are not giving notice in the hostile/war/eowcf. You're merely telling them that the notice will be effective at the end of that situation. What matters according to the agreement is when the notice is given. But the notice isn't given in advance, the notice is given at the end of hostile, and they are informed about the notice in advance.

Giving notice of the notice isn't giving notice. It just shows your intent to give notice. This is fine. But if you agreed to not give notice into hostile/war/eowcf, then you need to physically wait for the hostile/war/eowcf to end before you actually serve the notice. You cannot do it in advance.

When someone asks you if something is a hostile, you look at the CE and kingdom pages first, then look into the discussion side of things -- you don't just ask them how many hits were exchanged.

This sounds like how it should be. Unfortunately, this is not how it is. I think the community needs to work on this.

Giving notice isn't a hostile. However, it does force the noticed kingdom to train, so I could see them being upset if they then do not get to fight given that it prevents them from continuing to pump which is functionally what happens otherwise.

Many agree that notice isn't hostile. However, most would say that noticing a kd is calling dibs on them. Therefore if they wave/get waved by another kd or etc, they are to merely deal with it in whatever way allows them to fight the kd that noticed them. This is pathetic imo. You want your "dibs" on a kingdom, you wave them.

Ezzerland, every kingdoms make his onw diplo and there cant be some "agreed" rules for all. All idea about notices is because kds in top are very limited not like kds in midle/low rank. they cant war much kds and its stupid to make 5-6 wars per age. For this they make CF deals with notice. If you don't have notice any kd can hit you right after another active hostile and its suck.
In short notice deals are for provide relative fair 1vs1 fight in top. System is very good but past few ages ABS constant abuse it and for this we have so much drama now.

I'm not doing diplo for all kingdoms. This thread even if the community takes action will never effect a kingdoms diplo. If you think that, you misunderstand it completely. I am fully aware of the point of notice agreements also. If you read the thread you'd be aware of that. The point of the thread is to communitively agree to put an end to the abuse you claim abs, for example, has done. Door swings both waves. Don't try and tell me you're nose has never been in ****.

[UnknownGhost]

For now on, all hostiles, CF deals, NAP deals, notice deals, etc. need the UG seal of approval. Forward all such requests through me and I will shortly return with the yay or nay. That is all.

[Ezzerland]

For now on, all hostiles, CF deals, NAP deals, notice deals, etc. need the UG seal of approval. Forward all such requests through me and I will shortly return with the yay or nay. That is all.

My name is Rob, and I approve of this message.

[Elit]

I'm not doing diplo for all kingdoms. This thread even if the community takes action will never effect a kingdoms diplo. If you think that, you misunderstand it completely. I am fully aware of the point of notice agreements also. If you read the thread you'd be aware of that. The point of the thread is to communitively agree to put an end to the abuse you claim abs, for example, has done. Door swings both waves. Don't try and tell me you're nose has never been in ****.

I'm Sure your intention is good. Just its wont change much.

saD.

[DM_Benjamin]

tl;dr

[Mansoor]

It is a stupid idea. I want to be able to be dishonorable and don't care about a notice even if i gave someone. I mean, if the game become to controlling they where is the fun? The fun is in diplo and being an asshole. Your suggestions with notice ingame and **** is taking it all away. Misunderstandings, backstabbings, all the drama. Isn't it the reason we all play? If you can't handle the drama then dont cf with notices. It is simple.

[flutterby]

I'm Sure your intention is good. Just its wont change much.

You're right because as a community we act as if we're entitled. But everyone knows that in the top you do whats "best" for your kingdom and not the game.

[Verminator]

Hey there top-game, long time listener, first time caller.


Why does all this matter? Let's approach some basic assumptions:

--- You're all reasonably "aware" folks.

--- You're smart enough to know what is decent behavior and what is not.

--- You know when you're doing something sketchy and when you're doing something reasonable.

So why all the need for rules? If you want to do something inconsiderate, don't try to mask it or justify it with fancy explanations. If you do something that you feel the need to justify, then you're probably doing something sketchy. That's the whole point of having to justify an action; because it's a questionable action to begin with and people will question it, leading to you having to justify it. This is not a new concept.

If you want to do something sketchy, just do it. Be the douchebag. Take the consequences. For instance, in real life, the bully gets sent to the principal's office for a lecture when he gets caught being a bully. Utopia may have no principal's office, but it has a forum where fellow smart players will call you out on your actions and label them exactly what they are. You know when your actions are questionable, you're not ignorant of what you're doing. Acting like you're justified or acting like you don't know why your actions are questionable, that just makes you look worse, because people don't buy it, just like you wouldn't buy it from someone else.

"Do unto others..." right?

It's the golden rule for a reason; because it applies universally.

[Zauper]

Giving notice of the notice isn't giving notice. It just shows your intent to give notice. This is fine. But if you agreed to not give notice into hostile/war/eowcf, then you need to physically wait for the hostile/war/eowcf to end before you actually serve the notice. You cannot do it in advance.

No, it gives notice upon the end of those events. You see, giving notice is what starts the 48 hour (or whatever) clock before hits can begin. You aren't noticing them in their hostile, you're noticing them upon the end of the hostile, since notice is what starts that timer. Do you see the distinction? The purpose behind no notice into hostile/eowcf/etc/etc clauses is so that you can't wave someone immediately out of their war. Telling them that notice is effective as of the end of their war/hostile preserves that intent, while removing a silly activity requirement that you're artificially placing on the noticer.

This sounds like how it should be. Unfortunately, this is not how it is. I think the community needs to work on this.

You're right that some people hide behind things like 'game definitions' of hostiles rather than using their brains. While the community doesn't agree on what is or is not a hostile (and never will), I think that they tend to muddle through this just fine. People do what they want, and that is largely how I would expect it to be resolved anyway.

Many agree that notice isn't hostile. However, most would say that noticing a kd is calling dibs on them. Therefore if they wave/get waved by another kd or etc, they are to merely deal with it in whatever way allows them to fight the kd that noticed them. This is pathetic imo. You want your "dibs" on a kingdom, you wave them.

Presumably, if you notice a kingdom and they are waved by someone else, the someone else had 'dibs' to begin with because notice was already served (via the lack of a CF if nothing else). If they wave a third party, then they had dibs to that fight, as well.

[Palem]

Hey look, first real troll of the thread. Way to be.

It's hard to take a thread with such a ridiculous premise seriously.

You aren't going to get people to agree with what a hostile is, or definite terms on when you should or shouldn't notice because that's just the dirty players way of playing dirty without looking bad and the pathetic players' attempts at some sort of unjustified protection from the rest of the game.


Either play their stupid diplo game with unclear definition, word-play-justified deal breaking and general lack of remorse/consequences from breaking the "rules"
or
Don't play it the way they want to play it and play it the way you want to play it and if they disagree war each other and beat them.

People need to stop trying to play like other people and play the way they want to play.