Pew Pew vs Debauchery aka Strippers aka Mystical Maybe

[Proteus]

If the dealbreakers wanted to war SWEA then they should have waved SWEA since *they* are the ones who want the war. If you want to war someone and they do not to war you on your terms, then you need to force the war on them by hitting them.

From how they handle themselves all age they do not seem very bright: if you know someone is going to wave you OOW and you want to fight someone else then you need to be able to wave your opponent of choice before you get waved, this can be done by exiting eow/fort earlier and making your wave.

The argument of hitting someone into war just because they made you waste resources pumping is not a good one. No one is even guaranteed a cf so they could pump, how many ages did some kd deny some other kingdom cfs to pump science or even cfs to grow into range? Happens all the time. How often do these top kingdoms double team each other? Never unless they are baka.

In this case though mansoor made a pro move because debauch has a **** rep, just dealbroke two kingdoms, and offered them a CF to be reasonable with them or asked them to give button if they wanted war...having this set of circumstances lets swea hit into war with impunity as no one will care what happens to these guys. The actions are not clean as its not justifiable by community standards to double team someone because they made you pump but ****playing against dealbreakers who **** play others and are likely to ****play you as well is perfectly fine. For a better PR spin I'd just have said "they dealbroke two kingdoms, they might dealbreak me next so **** them"

I honestly don't see why these guys didn't just want to keep their deals this age and play fair, especially if they wanted to prove they were good at warring, when you only get WW due to dealbreak you get no credit and others just ****play you back and you lose everything you gain...seems like a waste of time.

[yamibone]

Yamibone - Ofc they shouldn't. Hence why CF:ing one party would have been wise. But now they put themselves in this position no?

so tell me my wise king, debauch CF'ing pew pew and eating their waves putting themselves in an even worse position whilst they warred you would not be beneficial for Debauch no? Judging by their kd page at start they could sufficiently eat 1 wave from Pew Pew and war you still with some core strength, but you would have had them eat 2-3+ more waves from Pew Pew whilst they would sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for you to be ready AND give you the button so you could rip them even further? Hmm seems like they did the right thing. And if a few of their provs are threatening razes, put yourself in their position. If they waved into your wars non stop I'm sure there would be some disdain amongst the ranks ;)

[yamibone]

a quick paper snatch puts SWEA's douche'ness waving into someones war in full view. And by the looks of it its still continuing

** The kingdom of SWEA **
Total land exchanged: +11,462 (44/0)
+1,441 Ta det vackert (5 [2]/0)
+1,116 Tala med kluven tunga (2 [2]/0)
+1,110 Ta den i 2an (2 [2]/0)
+804 Flaggskeppet i en samling (3 [2]/0)
+739 I stridens hetta (2 [1]/0)
+719 Ta tjuren vid hornen (3 [2]/0)
+646 Intresseklubben antecknar (2 [1]/0)
+615 I sitt anletes svett (2 [1]/0)
+557 Klappat och klart (3 [1]/0)
+527 Rulla tummarna (2 [1]/0)
+508 Med byxorna nere (3 [1]/0)
+502 Kola Vippen (2 [1]/0)
+457 Svansen mellan benen (1 [1]/0)
+427 Hugget som stucket (4 [2]/0)
+392 Ord och inga visor (1 [1]/0)
+247 An unknown province (1/0)
+212 Vara i sitt esse (1 [1]/0)
+193 Het potatis (2 [1]/0)
+177 Ana ugglor i mossen (1 [1]/0)
+73 Smockan hanger i luften (1 [1]/0)
- Ha en bulle i ugnen (1/0)

[baka]

so tell me my wise king, debauch CF'ing pew pew and eating their waves putting themselves in an even worse position whilst they warred you would not be beneficial for Debauch no? Judging by their kd page at start they could sufficiently eat 1 wave from Pew Pew and war you still with some core strength, but you would have had them eat 2-3+ more waves from Pew Pew whilst they would sit there twiddling their thumbs waiting for you to be ready AND give you the button so you could rip them even further? Hmm seems like they did the right thing. And if a few of their provs are threatening razes, put yourself in their position. If they waved into your wars non stop I'm sure there would be some disdain amongst the ranks ;)

I think Mansoor made it pretty clear to you so you might need to rethink with the thinking cap on:

If what Mansoor says is correct and factual (including the timing of the conversations), then Silva knew exactly what to be expecting albeit there may have been threats thrown in by Mansoor. If Silva did not offer the CF then the result would have been receiving hits from SWEA while in war with pewpew (as it is now). I don't understand why Debauchery did not just accept the CF and negotiate beneficial terms for themselves and instead wanted to take the double hostile.

Nothing Debauchery can do about it now, either tough it out and hope SWEA doesn't raze their t/m's in war (which I suggest SWEA to do if they want to farm Debauchery even more after wards) or they realize they messed up royally trying to play in the top and negotiate a CF but this time with less favorable terms since they threw themselves in such position in the first place.

My advice to Debauch is to negotiate a CF and/or intra raze yourself down the charts after your war with pewpew because I've seen better kingdoms disband after things like these because the players get annoyed at poor leadership decisions. You were having a nice age, just big ego's from the leaders.

[Farore]

Do you just shut off all brain activity and randomly smash the keyboard? Strippers broke a clear CF, they dealbroke - so why would anyone be upset that they get hit into their war? They set the standards themselves. Why are you so pewpew? If Strippers didn't have such a shady history combined with this age dealbreak, people would be throwing rocks at swea - but now, not so much.

Do you guys really feel that much better for insulting my intelligence because I don't agree with you? Or is it just too difficult to state your case without an insult thrown in there? I understand if you're limited that way. At any rate, if you read the entire thread, I've already stated why I don't feel that breaking a CF is such a major offense punishable by repeat hits into a kingdom's wars, so I won't repost it. This sums it up pretty well:

[...] if a KD can't defend themselves if they get waved and can only be at the top if they have CFs then, IMO, they don't deserve to be at the top. The whole idea of "hey guys, time out! I need to reload. (pump/send up a bank/etc)" is bull****.

So since we disagree on that fundamental point, it's clear we won't agree on this war as a whole and if you don't have any arguments to persuade me better than "you're a moron who turns her brain off" (which you stole from Endub, by the way) then you may as well just PM me in private with whatever insults you feel you need to express so this thread doesn't get derailed...again. My appreciation to the people in here who can state their opinions (agreeing OR disagreeing with me) in a mature manner.

Thank you, amokchen, for the war summary ^.^ I think this would've been a much more exciting war to watch if SWEA's acre grabbing hadn't made it impossible to have a proper conflict. I'm assuming Pew Pew will win, but unfortunately they won't get the full credit they deserve for it with SWEA's actions muddying the waters.

[Bishop]

Palem has already requested that the insults stop, that also includes responding to them.

[amokchen]

Maybe it will soothe some feelings to know we are getting outside hits as well now, ghetto nazi revenge forever to be feared.

March 18 of YR5 Adolfs Revenge (x:x) razed 15 acres of in my ear of (x:x).
March 18 of YR5 Adolfs Revenge (x:x) razed 15 acres of in my ear of (x:x).

[Milkman]

You can say whatever you want about Debauchary but they make things more interesting :)

[American Badass]

I do not see how SWEA TMing and not razing is fair. Obviously SWEA is using this to gain. What if ABs was to now join in and grow off of strippers as well? People would moan unfair Alliancce power play.

EG if this was Havoc in war and Rage was growing from hitting there would be a community out cry

[Persain]

I do not see how SWEA TMing and not razing is fair. Obviously SWEA is using this to gain. What if ABs was to now join in and grow off of strippers as well? People would moan unfair Alliancce power play.

i'd say stippers is geting whats comming to them. they dealbroke y should rage/sanc/havoc not do the same. Take back your acres while its easy is my suggestion.

[Silvapwns]

SWEA do not have to justify this move to the utopian community. Me and Silva talked on whatsapp two days ago where I clearly stated if you make me pump up and don't war me I will hit into your war. I am...maybe was...friend with Silva before all this and made everything clear to him that hey, you are in a **** situation, you dealbreak, you have two kingdoms waiting for you, SWEA won't give you button, PewPew will, and if you still don't want to CF me I will hit into your war if I have to.

We spent 100 of million rebuilding and training, spent 23million gc on a fluffy and of course with pewpew activity they waved before us as we knew. Silva knew all this would happen, eating a wave into fortified against small pewpew orcs ain't a problem. Silva and Cody then wanted SWEA to force to give button and as dealbreakers core was bigger than SWEA core they would get an advantage we were not ready to give them. Their whole plan was all along to force SWEA to give button or no war. Instead we held firm into not giving button but agreed to give unfriendly as we have to soften up their biggies out of war first.

So yes, SWEA did a **** move, but Dealbreakers knew about this and when saying to Silva about me hitting into their war he said no worries we will war you. We even discussed the only way to keep pewpew out is that one side would have to give button and as I told him already then that I won't give button. He was in a **** position why should I agree on something that is not benefitial for SWEA? I then offered CF again but no, they were determined to war us...that is why I demanded the button. And I am just keeping my word to hit into their war.

So before all lamers come in and say that we are kd x and they are kd y...no, we gave them oppurtunity to get out of this, they used this situation thinking we would bend over and give them button. They had a plan it backfired.

Also Dealbreakers kd mates have promised to interfere in all our wars and raze kill us so it is all good. So whatever we do from here is valid after the threats received.

You knew that even if we were to give you button Pewpew would have continued to wave us, and this is exactly why you came up with the plan to drag the hostile out for 48hrs, so we could have 3-4 more waves from Pewpew in aggressive mode hence softening us up for you. No kingdom would have agreed to war you in that situation. We had an agreement in principle to war, there were no terms, but still I am very disappointed that the kd who was 20-30k acres bigger at the time wanted button and time to prepare for declaration when they already had 1 month + 4 days to prepare for it.

I think you need to be clear to others that the CF offer was NEVER on the table except for 2 days into our EoWCF (when you saw our size and got scared) and when we had no confirmation from Petrified that Pewpew would've jumped at our agreement to war. In fact Cody has logs of him saying they might be preparing for Havoc hence we were led to believe we would have a clean road to war SWEA w/o any pressure or timing restrictions.

There is nothing much to say or explain anymore really IMO, your actions and the end results speak for itself.

I think the more pertinent issue to look at is one for the developers, because the -75% gains sliding in during war really needs to be reviewed/revised. It is not right that one KD from OOW can gain so much into war and helping to chain down provinces for what I would say are very substantial acres (we are up against Pewpew, but have lost 12-13k to SWEA at least - of course none of us incl petrified and myself thought that Mansoor would actually be so desperate such as to resort to this), but that aside I really hope we can look into this issue and I'd be happy to give my full input on this if the devs so require.

[SillyRabbit]

[21:39] <Cody> So I was chatting with Jsane earlier, who tells me he is handling any and all diplo between our kd and theirs. His general attitude is pretty aggressive, and he claims that we are already in a hostile until we work something out. after their first episode of demanding 10k acres from us, and now again with these claims, we feel the best move for our kd is to war SWEA. they have already risked double hostiling (whereas I know you said you wouldnt), so i feel like just giving them the war straight up will be the best course of action. in doing so, this would still leave the possiblity of our kds warring once the dust settles
[21:40] <Cody> Im sure this isnt the answer you would have wanted to hear, but its just the straight up truth.
[21:40] <Petrified> that's fine, but then you better wave them immediately after OOW or have them wave you
-
[21:41] <Codyy> err sorry about that
[21:41] <Codyy> just got disconnected
[21:42] <Petrified> [21:40] <Petrified> that's fine, but then you better wave them immediately after OOW or have them wave you
[21:42] <Petrified> [21:40] <Petrified> as I said, if you are unoccupied we will wave
[21:42] <Petrified> [21:41] <Petrified> we wont leave you alone just based on words
[21:43] <Cody> I hear you loud and clear. We still need to work out the finer details of the arrangement with their kd. They are in forty and probably will be when we come out. I dont think we would want to wave into fort, not based on the size of our 2 kds
[21:45] <Petrified> yes waving into fort gives a large disadvantage to the waving kd
[21:45] <Cody> A lot of the cfs in the top had expired now. It is especially difficult for us because in our group of 3 (us, pew, swea), you and pew have age long cfs, so while we war one of you, the other has free time to pump and wait for us to become available. we are up the challenge no doubt, but it would just be nice to come to an understanding to allow us adequate time to prepare for each of the wars we have upcoming
[21:47] <Petrified> hard to say how this will work out
[21:47] <Petrified> probably everyone is hesitant to wave into fort
[21:48] <Petrified> that's 5-10k acres gone
[21:48] <Petrified> we'll see how it goes
[21:48] <Petrified> also depends on havoc vs ama fight
[21:48] <Petrified> havoc expires with us semi-soon
[21:48] <Cody> In saying that, I would like to request that you reconsider something you've said twice to me: that you will wave if there is no hostile action. We dont want to necessarily reveal our whole hand to SWEA just yet, and we certainly dont want to wave into their fort. their leadership has been reluctant to offer giving the button, so we if end up giving it we will likely be already at a large disadvantage. Surely, for your own benefit, you would want us to go into the war strong and come out ahead, juicy to war with you guys after. Which is why I was hoping we could come to an understanding that we will war SWEA and that you guys wont just wave us if relations are not 'hostile' by the first hour OOW
[21:50] <Petrified> we have no particular reason to limit our choices in this manner
[21:50] <Petrified> this might end up happening as you say
[21:50] <Petrified> or it might not
[21:50] <Petrified> still 2-3 days
[21:52] <Petrified> it might be to our benefit to leave you guys and prepare for havoc
[21:52] <Petrified> or it might not be
[21:52] <Petrified> depends on how ama war goes
[21:53] <Cody> Okay, we'll see if anything drastic has changed over the next few days. I know our kds position will remain, and we will be preparing for SWEA over the next few days. They seem determined to war us, so I just hope they choose to get the ball rolling close to our OOW date, as we've noticed tons of them intelling us over the past day

--------

We were stuck between a rock and a hard place. We did intend to war SWEA, we told both SWEA and pewpew this fact. But it was also common knowledge amongst our three kds that pewpew would wave us if SWEA did not first. I had asked Pet to not wave, but he told me straight up that without hostile action, he would wave.

So at this point Pew had given us 30 points and taken around 3k acres. SWEA was still sitting in forty, and Mansoor was in pewpew channel whining about the recent events. Even though we had just ate a wave from Pewpew, we still told SWEA that they could wave and that we would declare. At this time Pew was 16.7m, we were 15.5m and SWEA was 18.5m. And SWEA was still scared to give us the button.

Mansoor has made claims that our core is bigger, our banks stronger, and our small orcs more effective. I cannot wrap my head around the logic he is using, because he is somehow saying that our 15.5m NW kd is much more stronger than his 18.5m NW. Is he for real? He is 20% bigger, we just ate a wave, and he still won't give button.

This is what Mansoor tells us: that WE should give the button to SWEA and they will press it on their own leisure in about 36 hours. Meanwhile relations with Pew would remain open, and since they hostiled us before we hostiled SWEA, they would be 100% in the right to continue waving us. So SWEA demands that a kd 3m NW (20%) smaller gives them relations to op us for a day and a half, meanwhile Pewpews orcs would have free waves on us, taking way more than 3k acres per wave once we are out in forty.

So we had 2 options:
1) We give in to the terrorists demands. SWEA ends up getting the button on us, Pewpew takes probably 10k acres from us before war starts, SWEA only declares when their win is obvious and SWEA benefits from powerplaying us (even though their mission statement has been to prevent absalom from powerplaying to the top).
2) We declare war on the kd that gave us the button. SWEA had already threatened to wave into our war. Funny though, they don't have the balls to hit us when we could declare on them, but now they are safe from taking any damage.

Mansoor can only justify his actions because he said he told Silva that he was preparing to war us. That is all good and fine, but Mansoor does not realize that he cannot control the actions of everyone in this game. As I've said time and time again, we expected to war SWEA. We expected them to wave us as we came OOW. But Pewpew struck first, and from that point forward everything changed. SWEA leadership was given ample amount of time to work out a war start with us, but again was scared to give a kd 20% smaller the button. That says a lot about their skill level and credibility doesn't it?

** The kingdom of Pew **
Total land exchanged: +70 (93/99)

** The kingdom of SWEA **
Total land exchanged: +12,359 (55/0)

Don't take this as a complaint. We came to the top to change the way things are done, and its fine that this is happening to us. Although I would love to see how the community would react when SWEA pulls this stunt on a kd like AMA or BB.

[THX1912]

Mansoor can only justify his actions because he said he told Silva that he was preparing to war us. That is all good and fine,

No it's not. If I go to a club, see a cute girl, make it obvious through the night that I want to bed her, but she turns to someone else. I then proceed to threaten to rape her if she leaves with someone else. She does anyway. I then rape her.

Was it any right to threaten her of rape to get what I wanted? NO. That was being a jerk.
Does "warning" that I'll rape her make the actual rape any less of a crime? No.

[Nitram]

By your own standard vs Rage not warring is a dealbreak. To bad you didnt wanna wave into fortified to avoid this as Pewpew stated they would hit you if you where not hostile.

[Korp]

No it's not. If I go to a club, see a cute girl, make it obvious through the night that I want to bed her, but she turns to someone else. I then proceed to threaten to rape her if she leaves with someone else. She does anyway. I then rape her.

Was it any right to threaten her of rape to get what I wanted? NO. That was being a jerk.
Does "warning" that I'll rape her make the actual rape any less of a crime? No.

HoH saw what happens to a KD that hits OOW into us continuously.
Expect Swea to bleed.

Real examples in Utopia is so stupid and never works. For example in this, threating to rape is a criminal offense while nothing SWEA has done is considered against the rules.