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Thread: Making the Utopian Treble Possible & Worth Playing For

  1. #1
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    Question Making the Utopian Treble Possible & Worth Playing For

    First off, this is not me posting on any preemptive/presumptive proposed solution. My approach is to first ask the "why" and "what" before we go to the "how we fix" discussions. (we tend to solution first without understanding and breaking down the problems at a consumable rate as everyone would have varied views (newb, noob, nub, pro)...)

    Ultimately, the goal is to make (per the title) the "Utopian Crown Treble" happen and worth playing for -- i.e. when you have honor, you gain actual value while consequently growing/warring for the land/nw crowns. At the other side of the spectrum (not make it too easy as well - where's the fun in the treble if it is?)

    My personal view for the honor status should be tightly integrated into the land and nw play and a key part of the strategy in maintaining a competitive position to compete for the charts. (this isn't a solution by the way - but a view/vision on how it should be.) The fix will be the necessary game mechanics changes, formulas, etc. But hopefully we get to that much later into the thread.

    So:

    1) Why would KDs who gun for Land/NW crowns normally shed (give up) playing for the honor crown?
    2) What's wrong with the game mechanics (or even how KDs play i.e. stay small and rape, etc.)?
    3) What other non-mechanics (if any) related components of the game ruin playing for the treble?
    4) any other input, of course...

    Peace.

  2. #2
    News Correspondent flutterby's Avatar
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    See, suggestion forum. Most of these questions have been discussed there ad nauseam.
    Quote Originally Posted by VT2
    I should get a medal for all the common sense I highlight on a daily basis.
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    <Bishop> I don't dislike Ezzerland
    <Bishop> We are just incompatible

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by vendetta View Post
    First off, this is not me posting on any preemptive/presumptive proposed solution. My approach is to first ask the "why" and "what" before we go to the "how we fix" discussions. (we tend to solution first without understanding and breaking down the problems at a consumable rate as everyone would have varied views (newb, noob, nub, pro)...)

    Ultimately, the goal is to make (per the title) the "Utopian Crown Treble" happen and worth playing for -- i.e. when you have honor, you gain actual value while consequently growing/warring for the land/nw crowns. At the other side of the spectrum (not make it too easy as well - where's the fun in the treble if it is?)

    My personal view for the honor status should be tightly integrated into the land and nw play and a key part of the strategy in maintaining a competitive position to compete for the charts. (this isn't a solution by the way - but a view/vision on how it should be.) The fix will be the necessary game mechanics changes, formulas, etc. But hopefully we get to that much later into the thread.

    So:

    1) Why would KDs who gun for Land/NW crowns normally shed (give up) playing for the honor crown?
    2) What's wrong with the game mechanics (or even how KDs play i.e. stay small and rape, etc.)?
    3) What other non-mechanics (if any) related components of the game ruin playing for the treble?
    4) any other input, of course...

    Peace.
    1-2: Honor is broken and lame, rewarding kingdoms for making bad play essentially.
    3: Define "non-mechanics"... like player mentality? If top kingdoms felt honor and war wins were useful to their ends they'd go for it, which is essentially a mechanics reason. The only thing I can think of is that war kingdoms often self-nerf in order to sucker ghettos into war

  4. #4
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    In defense of Honor, it's only lame because it's broken.

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    Probably the best way to make honor matter is to change the mechanics to favor growing while warring.
    A major issue with warring is the power of holding the button being so overwhelming, which encourages a lot of stalling and positioning in order to declare wars. One partial solution to that would be to fade in wartime GBP, so that it takes 24 hours before deep chaining is fully possible, and fear of giving a button away without having an overwhelming advantage is reduced. But that is only a small part of the problem with relations at present.

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    Raki said he would come in here and lay it down flat for us...

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    I like to post Realest's Avatar
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    raki doesnt know anything. he is the one to blame for this silly science draft system.
    The End of an Era

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    Booooooo

  9. #9
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    Cool

    By non game-mechanics, yes maybe also some aspects of KD mentality around honor. Maybe the value of return for honor isn't that great. Or, it just simply goes back to the honor system is just flawed that even if you try - you'll easily get F'd up afterwards. I'm not sure if there was any KD who tried that in recent memory but I remember Brute tried (at least from what I can recall... could be wrong).

    Here's how I, as a nub, see things with regard to crowns. NW/Land Crown is the premiere league and honor crowns is the FA cup (or futsal league). And don't get me wrong, I'm not against the Honor "crown" per se. In fact, roughly a decade ago, I played in an honor loving KD (vlahul's) - and we played for it. Though as a peon on ICQ/MSN, if I remember - we went for honor because of the bonuses not just for the sake of getting the "crown." He is a big fan of the formula (loves it so much) with the honor bonus gains it can do for your province and he hasn't changed when we last talked in 2009/10.

    And back to my point, do KDs nowadays see the same (or great) value for honor bonuses? Or people just stopped caring for the "crown" because of the system ultimately giving it to stay small and rape gameplans? Or both? Bonuses are bonuses, so it's always a plus. So, I guess I'm personally leaning towards a broken system altogether.

    And before we get down to "how do we fix it." I think, collectively, we need to understand why we don't play for it anymore. And secondly, would you play for honor gains and effectively the crown if the system is fixed?

    My personal view is this: the honor return value to province is relative to land/nw state - and get the honor points range value curve and threshold relative to a certain KD (or province) size category (can't think of a formula right now that works tbh)? Hopefully that should encourage Land/NW crown competitors value honor more -- and opens up the possibility to treble (or a double, whatever) while making the honor you gain integral to the success of your KD's strategy. And of course, fix whatever's wrong with the mechanics on honor.

    mkay.

    -nubdetta
    Last edited by vendetta; 26-07-2013 at 12:25.

  10. #10
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    There needs to be encouragement to GIVE the button. Some ways to maybe do this :

    1) Give 15% gains from the war win instead of 10% (land/NW/Honor) would be one way to "fix" the button. It might encourage more kingdoms to full on wave and give it so kingdom either waves back to give you the button or hits it themselves.
    2) Another alternative is to maybe make the unfriendly spells only available in war OR make x amount of ops move the meter as well eg 10 MS = 1 point on meter (This will stop kingdoms sitting in fortified for 48 hours+ freely opping)
    3) Like how fortified slides into effect make it the waving kingdoms gains get lower based on how many hits are taken by defending kingdom whilst theirs increases.

    In regards to Honor :

    1) Out of war random hits needs to take more honor IMO (This will stop honor kingdoms taking hits by bigger land kingdoms to stay small to honor war... if they lost that honor, they would not request outside hits)
    2) Intra kingdom ops / hits needs to reduce honor more
    3) Kingdoms should only gain honor when warring up, 80-90% = 0% honor, 91-100% = +5% from war win. 101%+ = full 10% honor gain. This should encourage kingdoms to hit up the charts and not stay small and pumped to honor whore.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vendetta View Post
    And back to my point, do KDs nowadays see the same (or great) value for honor bonuses? Or people just stopped caring for the "crown" because of the system ultimately giving it to stay small and rape gameplans? Or both? Bonuses are bonuses, so it's always a plus. So, I guess I'm personally leaning towards a broken system altogether.
    The bonuses are valuable, but they don't compete with the bonuses a kd who sat and pumped science all age have over the war kd that is then trying to grow with honor bonuses -- particularly when you consider the ease of removing those bonuses. 1-2 trads on your duke and he's lost several levels of honor and the related bonuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauper View Post
    The bonuses are valuable, but they don't compete with the bonuses a kd who sat and pumped science all age have over the war kd that is then trying to grow with honor bonuses -- particularly when you consider the ease of removing those bonuses. 1-2 trads on your duke and he's lost several levels of honor and the related bonuses.
    That's the sentiment and basically the same issue with honor that I've heard and know of since when I last played 4 years ago. Honor's displaced because the value it gives is trumped by a KD who invested in science for most age. The problem could be its "we pump sci OR we honor up then grow," we used the honor up strategy a decade ago and somehow it worked for a time to support the overall strategy of the KD (and back then ofc we didn't draft science). So with the crazy activity required (and maybe more resources/provs around to steal and plunder) you can pump it too. Then again, FW pumps were a norm then so it was done during those times. +22% pop and +22% OME is imba with the science too. So if you pair both, you very well have the power to whore it up and gun for Land/NW crown. And to think you have +33% to mod up TPA and WPA, honor pick-ups during war is sweetness.

    The second point is, honor should be an integral component (strict relative value), maybe add a multiplier to the extra bonuses you already gain at a certain size range. (i.e. +33% x ([0a to 2000a gives 1.03 multiplier to honor bonus OR 2001a to 5000a gives 1.08 multiplier to honor bonus, etc.]]). Not only honor bonuses - but the actual numerical VALUE oh honor gets a multiplier too. It doesn't really solve the honor-loss problem but making honor powerful or and bigger in KD/prov size. I don't know - I've heard of eliminating honor loss altogether (no idea what's the general opinion on this) BUT MAYBE honor decays in inactivity. Crazy idea on the last part and I haven't thought of it through fully.

  13. #13
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    - Ops should move the meter, I have zero idea why they don't except I assume they're there to give a deterrent to keep farming a KD who doesn't want to war, however IIRC the longer you hit a KD gains start to decrease this should just be ramped up higher and kick in fully after x hours (so for eg waving a KD 4 times in 48 hours your gains would drop to maybe -50% unless it went to war).

    - Honour gains should have some relative levels, a knight hitting a prince shouldn't gain the same honour as a duke hitting a prince, am aware this would bring it's own issues, however I'd rather see those than KDs with high honour having no way to war certain KDs without knowing they're just going to throw away bonuses.

    - Wins should provide more in terms of gains, with FWs being actively policed you could probably look to give more in terms of win bonuses, this one is probably easy to exploit more.

    - Recovery from wars should be made easier in certain other areas, maybe make sci research levels a bit higher (as in you can do more than just active) in EoWCF, guilds production of wizards could be increased (could argue they should already be easier to gain as AW is pretty much one of the most "anti-fun" game mechanics I've seen & yeah sorry but to appeal to people these days games have to be "fun", ie. not slow and boring spending 4 days with 80% guilds.)

  14. #14
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    Just make instant war declare and stop people from being pansies. Then you'll get triple crowns.


    This hostile meter garbage was implemented to prevent fake wars. Fake wars are now policed. What is the reason for hostile meter now?
    "Godly, you do realized that you have just sealed your faith now, right?"

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