Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 32

Thread: Stables...To Have or Not To Have??

  1. #16
    Post Fiend JackRabbitSlim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    224
    Thanks for all of the input.
    The solution I came up with after reading all of this is;
    16% Stables and 10% Training Grounds.
    The 16% Stables gives me 1 Horse for each of my Elites, and the Training Grounds will modify BOTH my Elites and my Horses.
    So, in the end, I end up with an Offensive Power Output of about 10.44 for every mounted Elite. That's including all of my Bonuses(TG's + 200% Wages) and 4 Generals on each Attack.
    So, again, thanks for all of the input.
    It really helped me figure out what to do.

  2. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    13
    Another point that many people forget regarding Stables vs. TG: Ambush.

    Ambush uses raw offense and those TG you have are useless for ambush. Hence, with Stables, you might be sacrificing some %mod off for versatility.

    Personally, unless one is playing a low-offense elite race, I prefer to use slightly more Stables than required to bush a few average hits directed at me and throw the rest into TG.

    For example, I have a 400 acre prov with 10K home def, I'll assume the enemy prov has OME of ~125% and a 6-offense elite. He'll send ~10K/6/1.25 = 1334 of these elites, which will probably have ~2 def, so ambush at 1334*2*.8 = 2134 offense. So, if you have a 6 or 7-offense elite, you need ~265-310 horses for each hit, or ~1% Stables. So, I'd run something like 4-5% Stables and the rest as TG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanche View Post
    The answer is both. It's not like you're short on building space.
    15%tg and 10% stables > just pure 25% tg by a long shot
    having only one or the other and you're doing yourself a disservice
    Agreed. As an attacker, one must consider marginal benefit of TG. If one runs 100+opa (assume 1K prov for ease of calculations), by building 1% Stables, you're gaining 60*0.01*TG bonus >= 0.6 mod opa or >= +0.6% mod offense. From a strictly non-ambush point of view, the point where adding 1% more TG provides less than 0.6%*current TG bonus mod offense is when you stop building more TG and build Stables instead. This point can be calculated pretty easily. For a 100 opa prov at ~70% BE, this point comes at ~15-17% TG. BE and opa will scale this point linearly. So, a 60 opa prov at 70% BE will benefit from Stables more than TG at ~9-10% TG.

    However, the ambush bonus is huge in my opinion. Even when I played Dwarf Sage last age with something like +20% BE sci, I still ran about 5% Stables, because when you have lots of TG, the opportunity cost of failing to have horses and needing to ambush hits and launch trads is having to send whatever more raw offense MULTIPLIED by the TG bonus. Plus, higher troop losses, yada yada.


    If you have some basic programming skills, it wouldn't be hard to plot how many stables you need for max offense for whatever BE, race, and troop compositions. If you don't, then it doesn't take long to figure it out for some particular build by hand.

    ************************************************************************
    As a UD attacker, I would definitely NOT RECOMMEND keeping a distribution of 16% Stables and 10% TG, because if you're running 1 horse per unit, there are going to be points where you'll find you have more horses than offensive units. Namely, if you get hit with your army at home a few times.
    Last edited by Meliethel; 26-12-2013 at 17:59. Reason: Reply to previous post

  3. #18
    Forum Fanatic
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    chillin in the sun
    Posts
    2,951
    Whatever works for you, it doesn't make that much difference tbh.
    I am just saying Stables are mostly for the unique benefits of ponies rather than OPA optimization (Homes are better for that given sufficient time to pump).

  4. #19
    Regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    VA, USA
    Posts
    74
    I like to use 20% TG and 14% Stables which get razed out for more Barracks.
    Undead/Merchant.



    Age 63: Undead/Merch

    Age 73: Undead/Paladin

  5. #20
    Regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    88
    it depends on your kd's pace. if can settle hostile/war right away from eocf, then stables are useless. if u have time to set up for stables, then do so. undeads have a land space for it. but as war goes along, you don't need to build stables, make use for GS or more TDs or WT. horses need time to spawn.

  6. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    16
    9% stables min for me.

    if i have spare buildings, i will roughly check either additional TG or stables will give more mod offense, and build accordingly.

    basically, stables has more impact when opa is low while TG is preferable when opa is high, my opinion.

  7. #22
    Forum Fanatic
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,661
    Stables are tricky.

    The question is will you gain more than 60*your current OME in offense for each additional TG you build instead?

    If yes, you build TGs. If no, you could build stables. Or, you could build forts depending on whether you're a turtle race and are looking for a target defense (probably). Or you could build homes, if you're a high off elite (for example, if you have 10% pop sci, you can add 8.8 elites with 1 home. 8.8 elites, as a 7 off elite, provides 61.6 raw offense, or slightly more than stables.

    Stables also give you horses, which are easy to rob if your troops get caught home, but you can raze your stables after you hit with them once as long as you always keep all your horses out, and only lose your combat loses amount, which gives you extra build space.

  8. #23
    Post Fiend
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    207

    Elf A/M

    I have to use horses. They add 20% offence if I have every elite on one. Better than TGs.
    Fortis Fortuna Adiuvat!

  9. #24
    Forum Fanatic
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,661
    Quote Originally Posted by Billah View Post
    I have to use horses. They add 20% offence if I have every elite on one. Better than TGs.
    False?

    Ok, let's run some scenarios.

    10 EPA:
    16.6% repeating stable to mount all your horses.
    At 100% BE, 16.6% TGs generates +20.83% offense, outperforming pure stables.

    6 EPA:
    10% stables to mount all horses
    At 100% BE, 10% TGs generates 13.5% offense; stables outperforms them.

    12 EPA:
    20% stables to mount all horses.
    At 100% BE, 20% TGs generates 24% offense; TGs outperform pure stables.

    You need to run the numbers based on your individual province to determine what mix of stables/homes/TGs/forts gives you the optimal offense/defense combo, and factor in considerations like stealing horses.

  10. #25
    Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    353
    Or if you look at it from another side
    x% of stables gives x% *60 horses per acre
    10% is 6hpa
    20% is 12hpa etc

    I play halfer with 6 ospecs/acre and i run 10% stables, 10% tgs and 10% forts and it works good. For elf some adjustment would be needed cos i can get extra offense from sending elites out if nessesary. Maybe 11.5% stables, 10% tgs, 8.5% forts and 7 epa

  11. #26
    Forum Fanatic
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    chillin in the sun
    Posts
    2,951
    If you use stables, high TG should be used as well. Stacking offense is more win.

  12. #27
    Forum Addict makeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    synchronicity wave.
    Posts
    1,133
    Zauper has kindly explained the basic logic you look for initially. The only thing a noob warrer like me would add is, try to project the logic he advocates beyond the first series or two of exchanges.

    By that I mean if it's close on what to run, look at what is likely to be better on hit 2 or 3 as well.

    Forts tend to support if you can genuinely go unbreakable under that logic.
    Stables tend to be razed initially, and you will have land coming in ,so you tend to overbuild on the TG's by a touch, and weigh up where the homes need to be.

  13. #28
    Forum Addict makeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    synchronicity wave.
    Posts
    1,133
    It's one of those look at where the likely counter play leaves you, rather than the initial situation, that I've always found more optimal.

    Edit. Imo, ofc.
    Last edited by makeo; 30-01-2014 at 09:15.

  14. #29
    Forum Fanatic
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    chillin in the sun
    Posts
    2,951
    Most heavy attacker (Orc, Undead, Avian) can and probably should devote 30-40% of their acreage to offensive power mods for pre-hostile. Undead, Avian, Tactician, Cleric all have landsaving abilities, and Warriors get more utility out of all forms of offense.

    The easiest and probably most useful strategy is cramming lots of offense on a province, and defensive buildings are not all that great. With that in mind, you should have no choice between TG and Stables, since 20-25% TG should be a given.
    25% TG and 20% stables (or 20% homes) is more common than it used to be, and it is quite effective at war/ghetto level.

    Stables and Homes is a bit trickier. Homes can put up some really impressive numbers and are great for pumping, but that population is still vulnerable to overpopulation and all the things that kill normal troops. Horses really only risk pony theft, an op that can be prevented given activity, initiative, and competent hitting.

    There are of course other things like hospitals, barracks, banks, and defensive buildings. The first two are likely taking significant land already, while banks aren't that useful for heavy attacker. Defensive buildings are highly situational, especially gs.

  15. #30
    Forum Addict makeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    synchronicity wave.
    Posts
    1,133
    It's not just heavies that have to weigh the decision up. :)

    That solution tends to the easiest for the reasons given.

    Things like upper tier turtle/ops races capable of hitting are where the difficult decisions are, and where Zauper's advice is the important one really.

    I.e As human on upper mid tier close to unbreakable, do you favor forts ( to try to secure your unbreakability, with the knowledge that will secure your kd income)? Hom'es with all the be benefits that will kick in knowing that you'll likely have good sci and love peasants, and it helps the hum? Stables, because beyond a certain point, you know they'll give you more offence and you can raze them? Or go in with the big TG's and max gain?

    Personally, I think that's a hard choice.

    I tend to favour overbuild TG's by a couple of %, only have forts if it's clear I can reach ub, and do lower stables than initial optimization would suggest on stables as I'm razing them anyway. Homes I favor as my second.

    That's not an easy one tho, and one that looking what happens next is quite important imo.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •