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Thread: Seeking advice/help with potential exploit

  1. #1
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    Seeking advice/help with potential exploit

    (I apologize for the length, I prefer accurate/detailed posts over vague generalizations)

    I find myself in a situation that I am unable able to find an answer for. I couldn't find an appropriate place to post this or a person to send this to and the folks on IRC were anything but helpful. If this is the wrong place, please direct me to the correct location.


    TL;DR:

    I am currently leading my KD (as Monarch) in war against another that has employed tactics I am beginning to feel qualify as abuse of game mechanics. Specifically, the new 24hr protection system for this age (which I was rather enthusiastic about until now). They are removing chained provinces from their KD and recruiting them back in with 24hr protection and the free army that entails. This has created a massive imbalance between our opposing chained provinces that allows theirs to quickly recover while ours are pinned down.

    We haven't communicated beyond an initial war invitation and their Steward telling me to go fist myself (in much less pleasant terms) partway through the war. I have little interested in providing them ammunition for "trolling" us by complaining about it, thus I am here seeking answers.


    Details:

    We were in the middle of waving another KD when this group asked if we wanted to war, immediately waved us and started a dragon. Our target was turtling fairly hard and ignoring the button we'd given them so I figured why not? We CF'd the first target and shifted our attention to the new KD.

    When I asked for terms, he replied that there were none, we'd just slug it out until one side withdrew. "Awesome!" I thought, a good ol' fashion brawl! They gave us the button, and we drug out hostile for roughly 24hrs to plunder for the dragon, properly inform everyone of the sudden target switch and gather intel. When we formed up to wave, we needed 4 points to declare, noticed one of their T/Ms had suicided out of KD (for no land even!) and prepared to swing.

    First hit: 0 Acres?!

    Second hit: 30 Acres?!

    I can't remember the exact land count the Halfling T/M in question had at the time, but I know it was somewhere between 800-1000 and we were swinging up from smaller provs. What we didn't know until after the KD page update (which seems to only have once or twice a tick, very annoying) was that almost immediately after we'd SoM'd him, he released his ENTIRE army (Thieves/Wizards included) and put them into peasants.

    When we swung out the first time, we had unknowingly swung at someone <30% of the attacker's NW with a large portion of our attacker's army. One of smallest attackers swung (from about 500 acres, but he was also much too large to for decent gains. We'd wasted two swings to declare war and were very confused.

    Waiting for the KD udpate, we moved to other targets and chained down a pair of attackers without incident before the previously mentioned discovery later in the tick.

    The Halfling was stripped clean and was genereting 60k/hr. We asumed it was to help fund their dragon given how ineffective chaining it would be. We didn't notice, but some of my players began asking if pimp was bugging out as multiple targets were showing more attacks than listed in our news. When we snatched their news, we discoverd they were using extra generals to swing at the naked Halfling for additional gains.

    Sure, it's not a lot, but when you chain a province to 300 acres, being able to gain another 15-20 with every remaining general by attacking a naked province is substantial (especially when the enemy is above your range). We had left several of the targets at certain acreages not knowing of the attacks on their side of the news. As a result, some of the chain targets quickly bounced back due to having double the incoming acres we were aware of.

    We adjusted accordingly. laughed it off as bizarre behavior and continued to chain down other targets with better awareness for this trick. The other KD was making random, uncoordinated hits at T/Ms, attackers with 300+ incoming and various other "ghetto" mistakes which left us believing we had a solid win in the making. It was to the point that some of their attackers weren't sending all of their horses and then lost them once attacked. Less than 24hrs later, we were up ~1.9k acres and 400k NW (in terms of relative NW loss; -400k vs -800k from war start).

    Around this time, their KD snapped into a sudden and surprising chaining machine. They dropped 1-2 of our now landfat attackers in a single wave with extreme coordination. A lesser KD would have been caught off guard, but we realized they were playing the LONG game and buckled up for a long ride. We lost our entire lead in that initial wave, but gained it all back over the next 24hrs despite having a couple more attackers chained down. We were aware of similar tactics and knew how to handle it.

    However, about halfway through this recovery process (where we regained our sizable lead), a new province popped into their KD named "GUESSWHOISBACK." Want to guess the race? That's right, a Halfling. This is when we started to question what was going on.

    Originally, we assumed the Halfling had to leave for RL purposes and was being killed off to avoid us gaining acres. I know if we had someone leave in the middle of a war, we'd do the same. The problem is that this province had wasted several of our attacks and diluted the effect our initial chaining had through hidden gains. Now I don't like to speculate, but the name is far too coincidental to NOT be the previously killed Halfling. As expected, it left protection 24hrs later and immediately started swinging. The Halfling had 5-6 times the amount of defense either of a chained province (more than several of the larger attackers as well) and just enough offense to quad tap our low def buddies.

    We lost our grip on their chained provs while their fresh blood enabled them to suppress ours. This caused them inch back into the war as whenever they chained one of us down, we lacked appropriate targets to swing at. The provinces we knocked down were able to recover much faster because the psuedo-unbreakable Halfling was holding our side down. We couldn't swing up due to diminished gains from the NW gap and the Halfling wasn't suffering any of the problems a chained province should have. We certainly weren't losing the war, but we'd lost one of our advantages and it was slowly depriving us of attackers.

    Our answer was to focus the efforts of our chained provs into one of enemy at a time. We caught one prov as it's land/armies came home and shoved it down below 150 acres. It stopped attacking entirely. This didn't solve the problem, but we were able to leverage our better coordination to begin evening up the playing field.


    Fool Me Once. . .

    The reason I am here is that the province we "disabled" disappeared last night. This morning, a new province appeared in protection with the same race and what we are assuming is the same player. It's clear it will ALSO come out of protection with disproportionately high def and the ability to hit our chained provs with all gens.

    Some of the provinces we initially changed have already recovered to a point where they can help pull down more of our attackers. Our lead has been slowly declining ever since the Halfling showed up. We're struggling to make progress because we can't chain anyone out of range while they are able to slowly pick off one attacker at a time. Even if we DO manage to get someone chained down, it is now apparent that they will simply recreate a new province and re-enter the war with 24hrs later.

    A crucial part of chaining is the ability to "complete" a chain with previously chained attackers. Right now, we can't finish off any of our chain targets.


    Related Issues:

    I HAVE read other threads arguing that you give up wizards and science, so what's the problem? However, this early in the age and at our size (~2mil NW w/21 provs) a single war win can replace all of the science. A single pump in a winning EOWCF can replace all of the wizards. The win plus the reduced number of retals allows you to quickly surpass your previous honor total. In this case, the Halfling was a Knight pre-war and is now a Baron while all other provs at that size are Knights/Lords.

    At only 1 war win each, we don't have much of value to lose.

    Part of me wants to pull in 4 friends through the recruit system, but I feel this undermines the integrity of the game. It would defeat the entire purpose of warring in the first place! Why bother finding a good fight when you can add players to your side mid-war and for a not-so-insignificant advantage that can only truly be countered by doing the same? At 72hrs, you had plenty of time to react. At just 24hrs AND with the starting resources, I can't think of a proper response other than to recruit as well.


    I came upon the following while looking through the rules:

    Fair & Honorable Play

    The operators of the game aim to maintain the highest standards of ethics within the game. Any instance of inappropriate language, manipulation of bugs, or acts of deception/fraud can result in immediate removal from the game. We rely on our users to help us enforce these rules and provide an enjoyable gaming environment for users of all ages and backgrounds.

    It seems to me that this "tactic" is at odds with this description.

    I am worried that as the war continues on, more opposing provinces will be "reborn" or that additional players never in the war to begin with will pop up. We intend to continue fighting, but it seems only a matter of time before the war slips away from us as more of our attackers get pinned down. The targets our chained provinces were swinging at have disappeared only to be replaced by much stronger versions.

    Heck, they might even start paying for provs to aid out soldiers, food and/or runes to the larger attackers. Maybe they need specs to slay a dragon? Now that I've seen one potential misuse of this mechanic, more and more concerns are creeping into my head.

    I would appreciate the thoughts and advice any of you might have for my KD in this situation. Do you consider this exploitative behavior? If so, what can I do about it?

    -----

    (To the Moderators: if there are actions I need to take to help provide you with the information requried to investigate the matter, please let me know.)

  2. #2
    Post Fiend
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    Not sure you have any option but to recruit those additional friends. This occurred during the Rusty vs BoB I believe, and nothing seemed to happen to them. So I am guessing admins do not consider this to be abuse but just use of game mechanics.

  3. #3
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    So if we've already used our invites at the beginning of the age to bring back old friends, I will have to pay money in order to obtain a fair war against anyone who employs this tactic?

  4. #4
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    Unless you can drag the war out for weeks and get the free invites, then yes.

  5. #5
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    Get someone else to razekill them for crappy tactics. Is another kingdom killing off their provs for them?
    Support email: utopiasupport@utopia-game.com <- please use this and don't just PM me| Account Deleted/Inactive | Utopia Facebook Page | #tactics <-- click to join IRC|
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  6. #6
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    If he told you to go "fist yourself" in an actual message, report it and it should get his province suspended.

  7. #7
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    No, the first prov came back after it's own KD razed it to death. Unless things have changed (I returned to the game last age), being razed out of your own KD prevents resets, hence they recruited them back in. We wasted a couple hits on it as we started our wave and then were unable to do anything to stop them from using its income and attacking it for extra land due to how much lower it's NW was compared to us. (40k NW vs 100k+)

    The second prov wasn't killed via land loss, it simply disappeared after stopping attacks (and we stopped as well) for more 12hrs after armies came home. I didn't look at the news (out of stealth, will check next tick if it's still in the News), but we assumed it purposely set itself up to die through inactivity so that it could reset faster.

    Are you saying that I should get another KD to razekill my low members so that they can reset just to combat the tactics made possible by the protection changes of this age? If so, we don't have the luxury of reaching out to a reliable ally who will razekill our provs without question. Even if we did, we'd have to first stop attacking,

    And I have reported the message, unfortunately it's just an afterthought at this point as it's not going to affect the outcome of the war. I just read the BoB vs Rusty through and now know that because they've started this process before us, we're going to lose by default. The time it will take us to reset provs is long enough that ALL their chained provs will grow up and start hitting our larger attackers that were reaching UB status.

    In other words, we HEAVILY outclassed our opponents, but because they started purposely killing and resetting their provinces and we only just NOW figured out this was a thing, we are going to lose because they can drag out the war forever. At least this is what I'm getting from your posts and the other thread.
    Last edited by ProzaicMuze; 15-01-2014 at 10:03.

  8. #8
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    provinces acquired in war should not come oop until the war is over IMO or at least make it 72 hours protection. I am going to guess he probably killed your first dragon sent on the.

  9. #9
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    Yes, we have been forced to tank a Gold dragon because they can fund them whenever they want and slay whenever they want. I honestly thought provinces would have 72hrs during the age and the 24hrs thing was ONLY for the start of the age. I was genuinely surprised when the Halfling started hitting 24hrs later.

    We've been discussing this, and we can't really win this war without finding a way to kill off our provinces faster than them and then somehow hold their attackers at bay for the 24hrs it'll take for us to catch up. What's worse is that I'm starting to hate the idea of warring at all this age given that unless this tactic is removed, it's just going to become more and more prevalent.

    I refuse to intentionally kill off my own members just so that they can come back with a free goodie back and override skill or experience. How are we supposed to win wars legitimately if there is always the threat of infinite resets?

  10. #10
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    No i am not suggesting you kill off your own members, get people to raze them for crappy tactics.
    Support email: utopiasupport@utopia-game.com <- please use this and don't just PM me| Account Deleted/Inactive | Utopia Facebook Page | #tactics <-- click to join IRC|
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  11. #11
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    How would I go about getting enough people to raze them down to salvage this war? Also, would that just allow them to reset more provs to carry on the war? And what's to stop them from getting their own friends to raze us?

  12. #12
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    Join #tactics. I am sure if no one is busy and people are pumping, people in there would help.

  13. #13
    Sir Postalot Lestat's Avatar
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    Click on the prov in the KD page to check NW and acres.

  14. #14
    007 licence to post Anri's Avatar
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    This needs to get fixed. They should stay dead til war is over.
    #?

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anri View Post
    This needs to get fixed. They should stay dead til war is over.
    No, they shouldn't. Aid should incur a block at a minimum and possibly a further war delay. You should make a a thread in suggestions if you want to be considered though.
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