Halflings

[Zauper]

I'd rather use Elf for WH than Halfer.

Getting an effective thief component is easier than it seems with the right planning and target selection. Better to have a province that is a better attacker and spellcaster, one with fewer weak points than Halfling.

Halfling grows better than elf. I'm not sure elf is a better attacker, either -- 5/3 elite and 0/5 defspec vs 4/4 elite and 5/0 offspec with +10% pop.

As there are targets with low tpa, so too are there targets with low wpa. (you could also just pump wpa...)

The only reason I'm really desiring a Halfling is if I have a use for high TPA, and the only way to really get use out of high TPA is through the Rogue-only ops - which in turn are useful for their utility purposes. If an a/t is only doing nightstrike and petty theft, you don't need Halfling or their TPA bonus to do those ops. Ergo, Halfling is pointless; it doesn't offer anything particularly useful aside from cheaper thief training. I guess Halfers have some use in growth kingdoms too, but not really a lot. For most warring kingdoms and especially ghettos, Halflings wind up being more of a liability than an asset.

Halflings make strong, hard to op/take down turtles. They are much safer vs ops than elves are, because of their reliance on elites. Defspecs get NS'd or NM's easily. The kill rate vs elites is much much lower. Cheap military means easy to stay trained in war.

Halfling can also a/t effectively because the scaling on their racial bonus is higher than the scaling on the elf bonus, especially combined with the pop modifier. and NS vs high tpa targets (like elf t/ms) requires substantial TPA if you're going that route.

Lestat is correct on the issue with rogues. No double dens means losses kills their tpa pretty fast if the opp.kd is running any WT.

We're probably one of very few kingdoms that are running both elf and halfling WH, and our halfling WH are stronger atm than our elves. With another 1-2 weeks to pump, that probably reverses, but it's hard to dedicate that kind of time in a ghetto. I might also be wrong; the extra peasants from the pop bonus means substantially more income over that time.

It's not clear to me why you assume halflings have bad WPA. Maybe you should just run more guilds? Elf and Halfling WH are going to train wiz at the same rate...30% modifier isn't that substantial for WPA success rates, and the halfer can afford a higher raw because of the pop bonus.

[Lestat]

And we can draft nice and deeps like. Also a good potential as a sleeper if everyone thinks they are as bad as you do :). Yep it's very hard if not impossible to dedicate time to science pumps.

[noobium]

Halfling grows better than elf. I'm not sure elf is a better attacker, either -- 5/3 elite and 0/5 defspec vs 4/4 elite and 5/0 offspec with +10% pop.

As there are targets with low tpa, so too are there targets with low wpa. (you could also just pump wpa...)


Halflings make strong, hard to op/take down turtles. They are much safer vs ops than elves are, because of their reliance on elites. Defspecs get NS'd or NM's easily. The kill rate vs elites is much much lower. Cheap military means easy to stay trained in war.

Halfling can also a/t effectively because the scaling on their racial bonus is higher than the scaling on the elf bonus, especially combined with the pop modifier. and NS vs high tpa targets (like elf t/ms) requires substantial TPA if you're going that route.

Lestat is correct on the issue with rogues. No double dens means losses kills their tpa pretty fast if the opp.kd is running any WT.

We're probably one of very few kingdoms that are running both elf and halfling WH, and our halfling WH are stronger atm than our elves. With another 1-2 weeks to pump, that probably reverses, but it's hard to dedicate that kind of time in a ghetto. I might also be wrong; the extra peasants from the pop bonus means substantially more income over that time.

It's not clear to me why you assume halflings have bad WPA. Maybe you should just run more guilds? Elf and Halfling WH are going to train wiz at the same rate...30% modifier isn't that substantial for WPA success rates, and the halfer can afford a higher raw because of the pop bonus.

Well, you're in a top growth kingdom, so you're one of the few who can use Halflings well. Still, WPA is kind of cruddy without a spellbook or wpa mod to make it worthwhile. A Halfer can put up decent WPA and the point on NS is useful. Even with +10% pop though, Halfers have a power disparity against other races, and they're probably going to want that extra pop space for tpa as well.
The crunch for pop space is more apparent at warring and ghetto tier, where provinces often don't get too big, and consequently it's harder to put up effective wpa/tpa defenses. I'm used to MS on a Halfer being practically a given, and used to attackers being at a size range where chaining Halfers is easy.

[kazinji]

Getting good thief power really relies on economic advantages. Halflings have terrible income flow and their peasants die like flies, so they're going to be reliant on non-sucky provinces for economic strength. Once that economic advantage is in place, having +TPA is not terribly important; having 100% BE dens and opping into weaker watchtowers is more important, and you're looking at races that can win the econ war more effectively and with less support.
I would much rather pick the strategy which has the lowest chance of being RNG-screwed. RNG-screws happen quite often to Halflings, and a bad run of fails will devastate them.

Not sure how you define terrible income flow or peasants dying like flies. Wouldn't anyone else peasants also die like flies? Our rogue tm's generally run banks and fund dragons most of the time.

Really the best part of being a rogue seems to be 1% more stealth per tick. Prop as an a/t is going to have to many fails. It has to many fails as a tm, and even if it goes through the gains can be next to zero. Which I agree with the RNG-screw. Seems better to do a run of NS that you know is going to work and kills a consistent amount, to do failed props or get 10 ppl from it. Just leaves AW and GA. Which are more situational on what the kingdom needs.

[Zauper]

Well, you're in a top growth kingdom, so you're one of the few who can use Halflings well. Still, WPA is kind of cruddy without a spellbook or wpa mod to make it worthwhile.

WPA is fine, you can fireball just as well with a halfling as any other core race.

A Halfer can put up decent WPA and the point on NS is useful. Even with +10% pop though, Halfers have a power disparity against other races, and they're probably going to want that extra pop space for tpa as well.

Halflings don't have a military disparity when compared to other turtle options; the turtle options are all close to eachother in military power depending on the bpa and twpa allocation you're considering.

The crunch for pop space is more apparent at warring and ghetto tier, where provinces often don't get too big, and consequently it's harder to put up effective wpa/tpa defenses. I'm used to MS on a Halfer being practically a given, and used to attackers being at a size range where chaining Halfers is easy.

In the warring tier, you intentionally don't train wizzies on the halfer beyond a baseline to prevent LL and use your kd to intra-kd MV any MS you get. You don't care about fireballs because you're a/t and kidnap if you need peasants (which you largely don't).

In the warring tier, it's much easier to dedicate pool to halflings because they're one of your turtle provinces, as compared to in a growth kd, and in the warring tier you do a lot more pruning to make sure sizes are what you want after wars.

e: for the above poster;
prop is the best way to reduce defense on a spec-based defense prov in NW range. The gains, over time, consistently do more damage than NS. If you need a certain amount of damage and only have a limited number of rogues, NS will be more guaranteed. If they're out of range, prop will suck.

[tetley]

>mfw i didn't realize rogue lost the double den bonus this age

lol geez I am inactive this age

[Zauper]

They lost it last age.

[Lestat]

Nerf balls

[noobium]

They lost it last age.

Tough for ghettos, but for effective war kingdoms Mystic and Rogue were borderline OP before that change. Now those personalities are relegated to a niche role, and thus the t/m game is opened up to a wider range of personalities.

I wouldn't run Rogue unless AW and Prop were tools I wanted to have in sufficient quantity, and most times I wouldn't run Halfer unless I wanted Rogues. While ha/wh can be pretty nice for growth kingdoms, I don't think it's the only option. Haven't checked top charts this age for growth or warring, would be interesting to see how Halflings have competed in charts.

[Stingaaaa]

I guess i should say thanks for all the input. interesting discussion. learned a bit.

Think we will go with high elites. Its only MS afterall. Better to have less losses from attacks :)

Thanks

[Lestat]

I guess it's easy to say it's only good for growth kds. Doesn't make it true tho

[noobium]

I guess it's easy to say it's only good for growth kds. Doesn't make it true tho

Halfers in ghettowar can be effective, but they are highly reliant on being aided and being used in a way that is useful for some kingdom goal. I would say that the vast majority of kingdoms have no business touching Halfling until they can make a good case for why Halfling bonuses are especially important. I'd rather have Human, Elf, Faery, in just about any role except superthief - and even then, it's not as if other races can't play a Rogue and still be effective in many spots. A properly implemented Halfling/Rogue team, with the right economic and attacker support, can do things that are otherwise impossible, and that's the only time I'd really want Halfers. The exception of a top kd defensive province was outlined above, and even then I think there are viable alternatives.

As an independent province, Halflings are terrible, and have been for many ages. This age they took a hit with an ugly stick because attacker options got so much stronger, and the soldier thing was finally patched. If someone can put together a competent t/m core with effective attacker and economic support, then Halfling is okay, but any kingdom that can do that better be able to map that out and build their war strategy around the Halfers. If not, it's just wasted slots that rely on the RNG to do anything useful.

[The Moon]

Halflings is pineapples

[Lestat]

So to clarify Elf and Faery make better a/t than Halfer? I'll give you Human based on your case :)

[noobium]

So to clarify Elf and Faery make better a/t than Halfer? I'll give you Human based on your case :)

Elf and Faery are about as effective given that
(a) the intended targets are attackers
(b) the ops being used are low-yield (robbery, kidnap, nightstrike)
*(c) nightmares or massacre are used to drop thief defenses
*(d) the elf and faery are relatively acre-static compared to their intended targets

c and d are highly situational and not always available, but are easy enough to arrange in most kingdoms.

If an Elf or any other race can get 70%+ of their thief ops through, they are doing about as much as a Halfer, while they can do other things. The reason why Elf can be a better "a/t" is because they are not a/t by design, but can (with the right preparations) do as much damage against the targets a thief would want to damage.

This does not factor the Halfling's defensive value, which can be strong under the right circumstances. However, for most kingdoms, Halflings are easy enough to chain, as long as those kingdoms have a basic level of discipline. It takes far more discipline for kingdoms to use Halflings in a way that really plays to their advantages; their slighty defensive edge, and their ability to build up TPA during war and thus target stronger thief defenses in long wars. Take this from a veteran of many a ghetto war, who has been screwed by nubly Halflings who do stupid things with their TPA.

For this age, Halflings run into far stronger attackers, and they've had a weaker Rogue personality for two ages now. Unless they are playing with some scheme of having lots of a/t - and that strategy is subpar for a lot of reasons - it's not really going anywhere. Too few Halflings and a smart kingdom is going to chain all of them or make damn sure they have no economy all war long. Too many and they have a weakness of offensive and economic output, and they are relying on thief ops (and thus a lot of luck, since it is hard to be an effective attacker with high tpa and a weak military) to be very effective.