CR vs AMA

[DonJuan]

Can anyone explain to me why what we're doing is wrong? Elit made a cf notice full well knowing both expire at the same time. This can clearly create a problematic situation. We're not doing anything wrong, we're sending our notice when able. We know it's the same time as another kd, but we can't do anything about that. Elit set that up. Now this gives the ability for ama and pyro to re-negoiate thier cf deal/notice and go to war early. But last age, elit flamed the crap out of parth/ED when they did exactly that. AMA was going to notice ED and they had a CF with pew that would end after AMA and ED notice happened.

Ed negotiated with pewpew to end thier CF early and war to avoid AMA. What did AMA do? Hit them in war?

Like I get it, pyro wants to war AMA because that's how they see thier only chance to crown, to take that small chance at beating AMA, out growing us, and somehow beating us in an immediate after war.

I get it that AMA wants to war pyro as they're a weaker opponent and they can get thier cows big and get land to outgrow us if they win. I see all of those viewpoints. But how is it our bad to give notice when we can, and trying to take advante of that? I don't get it. This is a sticky ****ing situation and that sucks, I wish elit didn't have two CFs ending at the exact time and this was much more clean than it was. But what would someone have us do in our situation? I ask you elit, what would you have us do? 2 ages ago you had flogger(maybe you didn't request it) literally threaten us that if we B2B war ama he would 2v1 us.

I don't understand what you want? We're willing to do diplo as far as I'm aware(I'm not leadership) and let you two war, but you want a free CF. How can we give that? Like, you are the most scariest kd in the game. I've told you I apologised for causing that 2v1 with sanc ages ago. I feel we we're both at fault, but I feel my decision to hit you after that sanc thing was a **** up. I've made amends with you, that being put aside, how do you logic us giving you a free CF?

I don't know, I used to think of you as an angry illogical asshole. These past couple of ages I've gained repsect for you, so much so that I've lost all animosity I once held for you, but I don't understand your stance on this subject. Can you please explain it to me?

I don't think you guys are doing any wrong....and I agree with Ezzerland.

I just personally think CR made it harder for themselves to find a war with AMA now which is what I assume is their desired outcome...but on the other hand CR made it easier for them to get a free wave instead.

[fookyih]

We tried to negotiate.

If they keep coming out with a deal similar to "Just Give Us The Crown" kind of deal and not going to move, then we just have to make our best move. Well i dont blame them, they propose based on thier best interest.

As far as my concern, we dont create this situation. we need to make our choice based on our interest too. This is a 25 players game. The whole kd has played so well until now. We need to responsible to our players too.

[protector]

Notice is given, there's nothing to discuss.

Quite wrong considering their CF agreement states a CF till Jan1 YR9, after that notice can be given. If you're a fusspot like Havoc has been the past few ages, you'd classify it as a dealbreak. Actually, if it was AMA posting they would notice Havoc on Jan 1st, you would have Godly being mad all over this place saying over a hundred times that it's a dealbreak.

Desperate needs lead to desperate deeds.

[munk]

Our CF expires JAN01YR9 - we therefore invite you to party!

We will serve your notice on this date, so please do not make other plans.

RSVP before APR01YR9:

Option 01 : Yes please, I will come -- I will bring own beer!
Option 02 : Sorry made other plans, I will compensate you!
Option 03 : I made other plans, but I think I can make both parties!

Protector -- we've not said notice is given -- we're just warning that we will? Shrug -- dunno who minty is.

[protector]

Protector -- we've not said notice is given -- we're just warning that we will? Shrug -- dunno who minty is.

You're noticing someone you're going to notice them, basically the same thing as a notice. And Godly also quoted that post and replied "Can't agree more" to it

Looks to me the only reason this gets posted now instead of when you notice them, is to justify hitting AMA in whatever relations they are.

[viNdict]

...

[American Badass]

My view without knowing what the CF are and notice durations:

1) If CR notices AMA legit and when they are meant too, I see no problems as it is AMA's fault for making 2 CF expire the same time. Therefore if AMA waves pyro and Havoc waves AMA, AMA has created its own 2v1. If CR cancels and does not abide to original terms then that is a problem.

2) If AMA was smart enough to make a deal that expires with Pyro before Havoc's notice ends and they are in a legit hostile and CR hits into that, that is a problem. If however CR allows AMA to war Pyro/get their hostilities out of the way before they hit and hits them straight when EOWCF drops, that is fair. I don't think it is fair if Havoc cf notice is say 96 hours, pyro's is 48 hours so AMA/Pyro have been in a clear hostile for 2 days etc and THEN Havoc hits.

3) If Pyro and AMA have the exact same CF as Havoc and AMA arranges to war a tick before to get into a hostile to dodge Havoc, I see Havoc as being in the right to double hostile them / hit into their war.

- If 1 was to take place I see no problems.
- If 2 was to happen but Havoc was to hit into a clear hostile/war then I'd like to think Alliance action with AMA/BBs help would be taken (I have no control over it) against Havoc as our alliance is meant to be in place for fair play in the top. This is what Drixx has always wanted and us joining forces with one of our main competitors for fair play would show our great stance upon this.
- If 3 was to happen I'd question our alliance position if we allowed it... and my own.

In conclusion:

Bad CF are the leader's faults and no one elses. As long as these are respected and events come about respecting them, I see no problems. If a kd is bending these CF to gain an advantage or hitting clearly into Hostile/Wars then actions need to be taken as it means the top has not progressed at all and learnt nothing over the last few ages.

I don't have any problems with either Havoc/AMA's style of play this age. Yes AMA has done really well in whoring by warring but like wise Havoc has done good to get where they are whoring by being boring. Both are legit ways to get where they are. At the end of the day... we all start at 400 acres :O

[Zauper]

The issue is simple:

There are three kingdoms (the top 3) who think they have a good shot at crowning, and they all want to crown. For two of them (AMA/pyro), their best chance to crown is to war eachother. For the third, it's to prevent that war from happening (by warring one themselves).

The issue that CR has with what AMA offered is that it would prevent CR from vulturing them (additional time, additional notice), while allowing them to vulture CR if they decided to fight anyone else, so it essentially lets them fight pyro for free while freezing CR from engaging anyone. They say that's CR's fault for making bad deals, but that denies that it was a bad decision for them to have pyro and CR end at the same time.

That said, it is not CR's (and nor should it be anyone else's) right to tell someone else who they are allowed to war. This is the fundamental issue in the top right now, people 'dibs' eachother and feel entitled to fights or wars because they noticed another kingdom, or started a forum thread, regardless of whether that kingdom is ultimately in war, or fighting someone else when they engage or not. When mansoor first did that a few ages ago, I went and talked to elit and flogger about it and what i got back was 'well, mansoor is crazy, we don't want to stop it', and it's been moving downhill since. So the precedent is there: if you notice someone and they don't make a deal, you get to wave them in their war. Mansoor did it to strippers. AMA did it to strippers, Fratzia did it to ED. There have never been consequences for doing it. That doesn't make it right.

I'm off to 'nam. You have abandoned your province. Now your people await the arrival of a new leader who can bring them to glory.

gl.

[13nesta13]

Agree with Zauper on most but some of the precedents he stated. We didnt whore when Mansoor vs strippers or AMA vs strippers happened, so we didnt care and didn't know what happened there. But using Fratzia vs ED as an example was not the most accurate one to do so with because ED "dodged" by entering war earlier than notice expiry with Fratzia, but did not let Fratzia know, hence they trained up and spent ****loads unnecessarily.

This is slightly different.

But yes, we did have all this stupid forum drama regarding Fratzia hitting into ED war. Does notice = auto claim to hostile/war, or does notice means, we're no longer CF'ed, we can hit you anytime we wish, you gotta watch out for us catching you unguarded. My personal opinions lies with the latter. And that being the latter, it still doesnt make it right to double hostile anyone even if you aren't CF'ed to each other.

Regardless, I hope we can resolve this peacefully.

I already stated my RSVP. I'm bringing my +24, and I bring my own booze!

[Drug]

Is it official "we will double hostile u no matter what" thread by Havoc players?

[Meep]

People keep talking about how Havoc isn't entitled to call dibs on AMA.

How is AMA entitled to decide they're going to ignore their expired CF, expect a free extension without giving anything, and war Pyro.

[Meep]

Also, how is this literally any different at all than AMA noticing ED and ED going to war with PewPew and AMA responding by waving into war?

AMA has absolutely zero ground to stand on here, because they literally did this EXACT SAME THING last age.

[Godly]

You're noticing someone you're going to notice them, basically the same thing as a notice. And Godly also quoted that post and replied "Can't agree more" to it

Are you dumb? Seriously... are you dumb? (mod note, banned for this)

Is it official "we will double hostile u no matter what" thread by Havoc players?

Nope. We'll have to take a look at what the scenario looks like. The only thing that I have mentioned in this thread is that the notice is for sure dropping Jan 1, irregardless of whether or not you move your CF/Notice date with Pyro. I'm not interested in playing bush league games here.

[Drug]

Also, how is this literally any different at all than AMA noticing ED and ED going to war with PewPew and AMA responding by waving into war?

AMA has absolutely zero ground to stand on here, because they literally did this EXACT SAME THING last age.

Last age AMA had no notice with ED, which allowed them to vulture us after our 9 days war with PewPew.
After AMA won ED, they started to run from us while warring PewPew, we did not hit neither PewPew, nor ED into war at all.

I dunno who r u and where do u play, but u keep spreading complete lie abt AMA. At least tell community where do u play, so I will understand what's wrong with ya. Till then I will consider u r clueless random hater.

[Parth]

About the situation last age where Fratzia hit into our war vs pyro:

[18:06] <Elit> i think you realy deserve this hits, and im happy other kd made it
[18:06] <Elit> so you can learn from this
[18:06] <Elit> and this time ppl wont say im greedy for land
[18:07] <Elit> if you cant warthem offer free acres for CF
[18:07] <Elit> dont run in another war

So according to Elits own logic, CR can hit AMA into war and actually do them a favour - giving them a learning experience.

One thing I know is that life is short
So listen up homeboy, give this a thought
The next time someone's teaching why don't you get taught?
It's like that and that's the way it is.