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Thread: Virtual Survey: Match Personality & Race

  1. #46
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    If you're a hyperactive then Mystic Aura is a spell you should experience. I used it as an avian tac a few ages ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
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  2. #47
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    1)avian warrior
    orc tactician

    2)undead cleric
    dwarf sage

    3)human war hero
    elf merchant

    4)halfling mystic
    faery rogue

    Kinda separated my 8 man team into subgroups. Group 1 being heavy casualty producing attackers, Group 2 being durability attackers, Group 3 being turtling attackers with income bonuses and easy maintenance of defense, and group 4 being the TMs. I'm also a fan of the faery rogue damage output, and like halfers resistance to AW as mystic.

  3. #48
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    Thank you natebane.
    The perspective you presented is a viable alternative to the 3rd division in the Virtual Kingdom array. Concise style to your post: Impressive amount of information in a compact format.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by natebane View Post
    1)avian warrior
    orc tactician

    2)undead cleric
    dwarf sage

    3)human war hero
    elf merchant

    4)halfling mystic
    faery rogue

    Kinda separated my 8 man team into subgroups. Group 1 being heavy casualty producing attackers, Group 2 being durability attackers, Group 3 being turtling attackers with income bonuses and easy maintenance of defense, and group 4 being the TMs. I'm also a fan of the faery rogue damage output, and like halfers resistance to AW as mystic.
    nice team. and by nice i mean it is extremely bad.
    avian warrior:
    lets see warrior gives us 15% OME.
    Avians elite is 6. they don't have stables. the bonus they will get is 6*0.15 = 0.9 MO per elite.
    Consider instead an undead warrior
    Undead elite is 7. plus horses, it becomes 8. with the bonus from warrior we have 8*0.15 = 1.2.
    Keep in mind that is a 33% more damage from warrior bonus if that personality is used with undeads, vs if it is used with avians. It just stacks better on undeads.

    Ok now another mistake, undead clerics. pay attention because you might learn something new.
    Undeads have -50% offensive losses.
    Cleric gives you -35% losses.
    Total:
    defensive losses: -35%
    offensive losses: -67.5%
    because you already had -50% offensive losses, the cleric personality bonus is less effective, and you only gain a 17.5% reduced losses.

    Now we can agree that the bonus for fewer losses takes effect every time you attack, and every time you get attacked.
    Since avian has 30% faster attack times then undead, it is clear the cleric personality will be much more beneficial to him.

    you made some more mistakes and i am too tired to explain everything to you. i will just say that your team compisition is total crap, and i don't think you have any idea how to play this game.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    Why do you think that fast attack times require some loss reduction? Avian's difficulty is that they bloat fast and don't have that much offense to begin with. I'd be more worried about NS and magic rape, and looking for opportunities to increase their power rather than trying to sustain in a long war (no matter what, Avians are premised on doing their damage quickly, not playing as tanks). Since Avian is a minority race in this setup, it will automatically have issues using their best bonus due to being tough to synchronize with other attackers, so that adds to the relative badness of Cleric in this spot. (If we had lots of Avians, then I'd be more open to Cleric, but in almost any normal setup I would prefer Warrior, Tactician, or Merchant on Avian before Cleric.)

    The best use for Cleric would be for races with expensive elites that they use for turtling, and for races that benefit most from omitting hospitals. It's also slightly better on races that would have better magic power, if using their Pitfalls (which you would in this setup, since effective pf casters would save their mana for higher priority spells). Human would be the best but they have two better options, while Dwarf fulfills the last two criteria. It's not like an Avian can't fit hospitals... and besides, Avians are based on doing their damage fast, not tanking and sustaining long wars. If we're going to try and fight 8-10 days, I'd want Cleric on a province that is trying not to get chained, and handles land bloat better than Avian.

    I'd rather have Merchant on Human than Faery, because Human is more likely to grab acres and more likely to pump with a ton of peasants. Getting better utilization out of Merchant's free credits, and not having the tpa/wpa and build requirements of a Faery (if the Faery wants to use the most of their bonuses, anyway), is a better use of Merch. While Faery econ is a lot more secure, I think in a long war they are better served by Sage and superior t/m science in order to make up for their lack of a wpa/tpa bonus.
    Lets assume that orcs and avians will take the same losses for each attack they make.
    Lets assume we need to decided who to give cleric.
    Orc attacks 2 times a day. so lets say he will have 2000 losses (1k for each attack)
    Avian attacks 30% faster, so he attacks 2*1.3 = 2.6 times a day. so he will have 2600 losses.
    because the avian has more losses than the orc in the same time frame, he will benefit more from being a cleric.

    Now for warrior personality.
    Avian elite = 6.
    Orc elite is 7 + 1 from horse = 8.

    Avian: 6 * 1.15 = 6.9
    Orc: 8 * 1.15 = 9.2
    Avian gets bonus of 0.9, and Orc gets bonus of 1.2. thats 33% difference. Multiple that by 10,000 for your entire army and you will see a huge difference in the bonus it provides. Warrior simple works better if it's on a race that has a strong elite.

    for human merchant, also keep in mind that human is more likely to get fireballed, and lose his peasants, so tog will be useless.
    and taht his +20% sci efficiency stacks better sage personality

  6. #51
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    Unsaid but understood is that some simply have a knack for certain builds. I already appreciate the mathematical efficiency of the premier builds age to age.

    Efficiency as I've stated before is predictable. Obviously it is a strong point to exercise ones strategy, but it's not the end of tactical adaptation. I for one use the cleric build with it's ups and downs and the water is fine.

    It is for us to explore not criticize alternative builds here my friend fawk. We have already submitted this isn't an efficient practice in build. I always welcome both an enlightened and naive perspective.

    The welcome I offer here is because there is a chance to learn. The perspective of those with limited clarity is as much appreciated as the ages long veteran. In that I also realize we may well have our roles reversed. If you aren't aware I was offered the build for a faery cleric by none other than octobrev who ran the contraption in age 57. - Because it's fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  7. #52
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    I see that mindset alot in players where they have a biased ignorance in superstacking bonuses for the sake of individual optimization. Integration and diversification of threats between race/personas towards achieving a desired goal will put you miles ahead of 'obvious' choices. I'll go through my choices for this thought experiment:

    Avian/Warrior
    Orc/Tactician
    -These are the guys that take advantage of the early game getting in extra damage/gains in a short period of time. They also are fairly linear races in what they provide for a kd overall. Notice the bonuses are setup to where they are nearly the same thing, so taking out one isn't as detrimental as taking out an orc/warrior where you just lose all your extra damage and gains. If these guys are chained first, their speed and gains make them very resilient which will be important for your high damage attackers. The warrior on avian puts its elite up to 6.9 + fanat =7.245 on 5 nw, giving you 3 different attackers 7 power leets + whatever TG you run. Superstacking the warrior with UD or Orc in this scenario should come with a purpose, like breaking high defense turtlers, otherwise they do just fine achieving double tapping opa without it. Unless the goal is triple tapping right off the bat, but still requires sacrificing defense keeping you just as easy to chain while losing the most for the group in one chain.

    Undead/Cleric
    Dwarf/Sage
    -Undead takes advantage of only half the benefit from hospitals so running cleric negates the need for them to run them at all, as opposed to other races running cleric would still need to run hospitals against an UD heavy kd. This opens them to a large amount of space efficiency for defensive purposes or adapting a more aggressive posture to compliment the first group. The most important resource to have while being chained is pop space, and at low acreage its the 25>15 pop from always free buildings that keep dwarves in a fight coupled with amazing pop science and the most efficient defensive buildings. They too also have the ability to adapt and become super aggressive to supplement the first group.

    Human/Warhero
    Elf/Merchant
    -Subtle, but just as threatening as the previous groups. Human is one of those races that can take advantage of WH and war spoils. Tactical camping, instant acres, income advantage. Ignoring sapphires and pumped science they can maintain population control through kidnaps fairly easily and eventual econ superiority. Elf merchant balances one of the races downsides which is crap econ. Merchant gives stronger oow science pumps, still making them a strong A/m and FB resiliency against its peasants. coupled with the rejuvenation effect the extra credits maintains its turtling ability. The soldier reanimation cuts down on training time similar to WH.

    Halfling/Mystic
    Faery/Rogue
    -Halfling makes a better mystic than faery due to the extra pop space to devote to rwpa and the mod tpa to protect them. This opens the faery up to taking full advantage of its damage bonuses through instant spells, and maintain itself with LL+prop.

    Notice the diversification to where if one gets taken down, another can fill its role. If any are familiar with damage theory, I play a red mage in magic the gathering. Thats how I designed this conceptual setup, is on immediate, consistent pressure with a strong late game. Relentless

    I learned in the wide range of kd wide strategy in utopia outside the restrictions of this experiment, 'obvious' choices can integrate well within the confines of specific goals needed, but my personal views on strategy are based more on balance to the point of optimizing net damage rather than excessively emphasizing your strengths. Like mobilizing a well balanced Greek Phalanx to adapt and attack an enemy at their weakest point or what would lose them the most.
    Last edited by natebane; 02-03-2014 at 04:50. Reason: to not sound elitist

  8. #53
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    Obviously warrior does better on races with stronger elites, which is why I'd put warrior on Undead or Orc before Avian in this situation. In general, Avian/Warrior is okay but not great.

    The thing about attacking faster is that even though you lose more troops in the same span of time, each hit should be doing more damage than the troops lost on the attack - far more, if the implied damage or boost of landchains, massacres, spec/build credits, etc. are considered. If your hits are not doing damage worth the troop losses than there are bigger problems. While Cleric is useful for maximizing the efficiency of hits - but mostly for the land saved from not building hospitals - it has nothing to do with faster or slower hitting.
    Last edited by noobium; 02-03-2014 at 03:35.

  9. #54
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    this is the best overall fit imo....

    most of the ideal combinations are not here but it would be the best well rounded for sure...

    human sage (best fit for sage even though it sucks)
    halfling rogue (no brainer)
    orc warrior (no brainer)
    avian cleric (tact goes better elsewhere and avian could do with the sustain)
    faery mystic (because faery has to be either rogue or mystic)
    elf tact (great hybrid attacker, very hard to bring down)
    undead merchant (spec credits to train specs which become elites)
    dwarf war hero (sucks completely)

  10. #55
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    Agreed, elf tac is a nice combination. Undead merchant does get obscene use if less effect for kingdom sake. I deem dwarf as a theater control race and thus not a complete miss at war hero. My personal preference after some thought is war hero not on dwarf specifically because they can't accelerate build war spoils. This has more to do with strategic leverage than anything wrong with the personality or race. The elf magic would be unfettered in war with war hero for instance and a dwarf tac is a formidable combination. Obviously I like them both. ;-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by natebane View Post
    I see that mindset alot in players where they have a biased ignorance in superstacking bonuses for the sake of individual optimization. Integration and diversification of threats between race/personas towards achieving a desired goal will put you miles ahead of 'obvious' choices. I'll go through my choices for this thought experiment:

    Avian/Warrior
    Orc/Tactician
    -These are the guys that take advantage of the early game getting in extra damage/gains in a short period of time. They also are fairly linear races in what they provide for a kd overall. Notice the bonuses are setup to where they are nearly the same thing, so taking out one isn't as detrimental as taking out an orc/warrior where you just lose all your extra damage and gains. If these guys are chained first, their speed and gains make them very resilient which will be important for your high damage attackers. The warrior on avian puts its elite up to 6.9 + fanat =7.245 on 5 nw, giving you 3 different attackers 7 power leets + whatever TG you run. Superstacking the warrior with UD or Orc in this scenario should come with a purpose, like breaking high defense turtlers, otherwise they do just fine achieving double tapping opa without it. Unless the goal is triple tapping right off the bat, but still requires sacrificing defense keeping you just as easy to chain while losing the most for the group in one chain.

    Undead/Cleric
    Dwarf/Sage
    -Undead takes advantage of only half the benefit from hospitals so running cleric negates the need for them to run them at all, as opposed to other races running cleric would still need to run hospitals against an UD heavy kd. This opens them to a large amount of space efficiency for defensive purposes or adapting a more aggressive posture to compliment the first group. The most important resource to have while being chained is pop space, and at low acreage its the 25>15 pop from always free buildings that keep dwarves in a fight coupled with amazing pop science and the most efficient defensive buildings. They too also have the ability to adapt and become super aggressive to supplement the first group.

    Human/Warhero
    Elf/Merchant
    -Subtle, but just as threatening as the previous groups. Human is one of those races that can take advantage of WH and war spoils. Tactical camping, instant acres, income advantage. Ignoring sapphires and pumped science they can maintain population control through kidnaps fairly easily and eventual econ superiority. Elf merchant balances one of the races downsides which is crap econ. Merchant gives stronger oow science pumps, still making them a strong A/m and FB resiliency against its peasants. coupled with the rejuvenation effect the extra credits maintains its turtling ability. The soldier reanimation cuts down on training time similar to WH.

    Halfling/Mystic
    Faery/Rogue
    -Halfling makes a better mystic than faery due to the extra pop space to devote to rwpa and the mod tpa to protect them. This opens the faery up to taking full advantage of its damage bonuses through instant spells, and maintain itself with LL+prop.

    Notice the diversification to where if one gets taken down, another can fill its role. If any are familiar with damage theory, I play a red mage in magic the gathering. Thats how I designed this conceptual setup, is on immediate, consistent pressure with a strong late game. Relentless

    I learned in the wide range of kd wide strategy in utopia outside the restrictions of this experiment, 'obvious' choices can integrate well within the confines of specific goals needed, but my personal views on strategy are based more on balance to the point of optimizing net damage rather than excessively emphasizing your strengths. Like mobilizing a well balanced Greek Phalanx to adapt and attack an enemy at their weakest point or what would lose them the most.
    i don't want to be mean but your choices are bad if you ask me. i know you are trying to be balanced overall somehow but it doesn't really work for a few reasons.

    firstly tact on an orc is a waste because orc doesn't really need CS. orcs are great for suciding running low dpa/ low tpa and a ton of guard stations while quint-tapping away like mad. CS is better on a bank or an elf turtle. even CS on an undead is good so they can run low tpa (which they want to anyway since they cant do thieve ops) and they can send 1 thief for perfect intel, coupled with 15% watch towers would make them pretty resilient to any thievery ops.

    avian warrior is not the same as orc tact... you have an extra general with warrior which is better with more offence.. not less offence... avian is 6/2 orc is 7/1 + 1 mounted is 8. avian would have a hard time quint tapping as warrior but orc can do it easy.

    undead cleric is okay, not that great though, undead tact or merch is better imo. dwarf sage is okay too, but sage goes better with human for obvious reasons. dwarf at 6/1 could do with war spoils since they are so easy to ambush though, which makes them better for war hero.

    human merchant means way better ToG's, i dunno why you gave merchant to elf. elf doesn't really need economy since they have less defensive losses, revived troops, getting hit less in general with higher defence, etc, which takes the strain off their econ. also human with War spoils is kinda dumb because with a 6/4 elite no one is going to ambush them, unlike dwarf at 6/1.

    halfling mystic and faery rogue is okay, but i still think half/rogue and faery/mystic is still better.

    just IMO, i know you have some sort of super deep the magic gathering brilliant tactical insight that i don't seem to have going on though.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by worldstrider View Post
    i don't want to be mean but your choices are bad if you ask me. i know you are trying to be balanced overall somehow but it doesn't really work for a few reasons.

    firstly tact on an orc is a waste because orc doesn't really need CS. orcs are great for suciding running low dpa/ low tpa and a ton of guard stations while quint-tapping away like mad. CS is better on a bank or an elf turtle. even CS on an undead is good so they can run low tpa (which they want to anyway since they cant do thieve ops) and they can send 1 thief for perfect intel, coupled with 15% watch towers would make them pretty resilient to any thievery ops.

    Orc warrior is fine, but is a space deprived glass cannon imo. They can't reach the defensive mtpa that others can, so having auto chance to fail both types of ops is pretty powerful, especially when they start to bloat.



    avian warrior is not the same as orc tact... you have an extra general with warrior which is better with more offence.. not less offence... avian is 6/2 orc is 7/1 + 1 mounted is 8. avian would have a hard time quint tapping as warrior but orc can do it easy.

    I've played avian warrior, and it really is fun. Defense doesn't last forever, so giving extra gains to a race thats more resilient to being ambushed is a good thing.



    undead cleric is okay, not that great though, undead tact or merch is better imo. dwarf sage is okay too, but sage goes better with human for obvious reasons. dwarf at 6/1 could do with war spoils since they are so easy to ambush though, which makes them better for war hero.

    How much tpa would you run as an UD attacker? wpa? Because they don't have the ability to replace lost peasants if FB or kidnapped, get only half the bonus from hospitals, and their leets are still pricy too, it's better to just retain the offense you have instead of worrying about replacing them through conversions (should be thought of as supplemental, not main source of offense), which really opens up space to be pretty adaptable.

    Agreed Dwarf WH isn't a bad combo,but their use of war spoils is going to be more situational and less effective. They already have QF and effectiveness to take advantage of speed, which can give them an inherent resiliency to ambushes. On a human the war spoils can be used while maintaining UB, accelerated construction, and Tog takes advantage of extra income. Make it part thief to replace pezzies in war and it would net more gc than a merchant in war under a sapphire dragon





    human merchant means way better ToG's, i dunno why you gave merchant to elf. elf doesn't really need economy since they have less defensive losses, revived troops, getting hit less in general with higher defence, etc, which takes the strain off their econ. also human with War spoils is kinda dumb because with a 6/4 elite no one is going to ambush them, unlike dwarf at 6/1.

    There's more uses for economy than losses. Utilizing merchant in a similar way I would sage on an elf in this situation, with the ability to draft deeper and aid out when it starts getting big. So I'm just capitalizing on their abilities that make them a pain in the butt to take down and making the enemy want to take them down, or they become more of an asset as they grow.




    halfling mystic and faery rogue is okay, but i still think half/rogue and faery/mystic is still better.

    Either or is fine, depends on what you want. Half/rogue can prop or AW other TMs, kinda wasteful since you can still do resource deprivation on TMs and AW/prop key attackers as Faery/rogue. Freeing up faery from MS duty also lets him use his ToG more or the Faery. halfer, elf can do a Nightmare chain together. I've already stated why I like the halfer mystic, wasteful to try MS on other TMs unless you're running a multitude of elves to do it, ever since the 'Great rune shortage'. Halfer can also feed himself runes from the other TMs.

    just IMO, i know you have some sort of super deep the magic gathering brilliant tactical insight that i don't seem to have going on though.
    Replies in bold

    There're more strategies and nuances available in the game than standard matching of races and personas. Not saying my way is the best, just a viable tactic.
    Last edited by natebane; 02-03-2014 at 23:28.

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