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Thread: Thoughts on 'Dibs' and Definition of Hostile

  1. #1
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    Thoughts on 'Dibs' and Definition of Hostile

    Wanted to get a robust discussion going on this to see what everyone's thoughts are on these issue as it has been prevalent in the past and has resulted in ****play.

    (1) Dibs: claiming the exclusive right to fight someone without having established hostilities with kingdom in question
    -typically used when 2 kds have a cf or notice expiring in future and the aggressor wants to establish first priority claim to target kd
    -also used when kd siting conflict, war. Eowcf and has options/open relations with other kds but one kd wants to establish claim to fight this kd.

    Dibs is the biggest bull**** I have seen that has been used in the last few ages. There is no such thing as a pre-notice or pre-hostile.

    If you want to fight someone at end of your cf or after they exit from eow/fort you need to go and wave them and you need to be the first one to do it and establish hostile by giving button. You CANT tell another kingdom 'we are coming, dont make any other plans' or 'dont run because we will hit you regardless.' A kingdom who has cfs ending at same date or has no-cfs has the right to fight anyone they want regardless of what another kingdom wants.

    Please don't give me crap about setting up cfs ending on the same date because many a time this has been used strategically or notice simply has not been given. Dibs has only become a problem in recent ages, prior to that there have been no problems although cfs have been ending on the same date for 50+ ages.

    If you want to fight someone when cfs end and want to make sure its your kingdom, one thing you can try is talking to your target and potential kds they may fight and see if they can work something out. However, there is no legitimate way to "claim" someone without hitting them first.

    (2) Definition of hostile
    To me this one is pretty straight forward, hostile = presence of a button however there are some additional issues that apply here.

    Lately i have seen stupid stuff such as dragon sent = hostile! dragon started = hostile! making a thread in forums = hostile. None of these are hostile and have never been considered.

    The proper way to claim hostile is to give button. The only other time you can have hostile is when cows are having a fight, in cow fights preserving meter is important due to presence of ops. Cow fight to kick off hostile is usually a drawn out hostile and when ops are given waves will ensue. This does not mean that cows have their 'own' hostile where if a kingdom with a cow waves a kd without a cow, the cow can be hit by other cows because it has no target in said kd. This stupid excuse was brought up last age and the dumbest thing i have ever heard.

    If you want to fight someone and claim them, again GIVE THEM BUTTON. Making a thread is never a hostile neither is starting/sending a dragon, that is stupid. Man up, grow a pair, after all if you want to fight someone and are pushing the initiative YOU need to be the one to hit them, so go and do it otherwise you need to stfu and not claim hostile.

  2. #2
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    Part of the issue is the severely diminished competition at the top in the past 6-10 ages.

    On the CF expiration date, there were 3 kingdoms 40-50k acres ahead of the rest of the server.

    Banks can't grow out of war, so in that situation the two kingdoms that war are at a huge advantage over the one that doesn't.

  3. #3
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    theres no debate here, what you said makes pure sense Proteus.

  4. #4
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    Cow fight is not a hostile, then you could never attack the biggest province in a small kd if hes army is out, they might consider it beeing in a cowfight.

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    Totally honestly?

    I think "dibs" is, and always has been, a f*cking retarded mechanism, that jdorje invented to justify to wave Sims army out in age 54 that he didn't have the balls to do and should have.

    It has effected the game since then, and it's bollox.

    I'd accept 7 hits, so one off hostile due to button power, as possibly being enough, but the rest is meh.

    Think it is interrelated to button on such an extent you have to do mechanism changes to consider fully.

  6. #6
    007 licence to post Anri's Avatar
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    I agree with most what proteus said.

    Regading notice i think its a pretty annoying form of play that has no place in utopia same goes for dibs and taxes.
    I wanted game mechanics changed to a better CF system for so many ages but they rather choose to play around with the races and the pool etc. Some really basic ingame CF system would solve most dealbreaks and a lot of ****play we have seen. Exactly how to code it etc is not up to me but if they want a better game it should have been done a long time ago. The definition of hostile is easy as well and could easy be built into the game aswell. A hostile could be shown on KD page and kds moved into a stance of hostile etc. IMO its just game mechanics that is the biggest problem most of the time. I dont have the perfect solution for the problems but i think the devs should listen more to its players regarding a few of the changes. I also feel better moderation in general of this forums is extremely important to stop multi accounts here, random trolls etc. Its time for changes or let the game itself just die out.

    *******
    CF system:

    1) Could be done in a way where you can choose to have a 48h period you can only take intel from the moment you break the CF. Attacks/ops can only be done after 48h. You can choose ingame if you want a duration deal or not.
    2) It could be done in a way you can never end a CF at the same hour to two kds at once.
    3) It can be done so that once a CF is agreed to a loc and a time is made on the deal it cant be unbroken.

    This is just ideas and they could be finetuned into perfection. Maybe the game utopia never wanted it to be this way, but the players done diplomacy for as long as i can remember and its a huge part of the game so why not add better systems for it ingame. I mentioned it for MANY ages and it keeps getting overlooked over and over because other stupid changes gets done before the changes that really matters.

    I dont care if the orc elit is worth 7 or 8 off points or if the bloody faery got 3 gens or 5 gens etc.
    Last edited by Anri; 25-02-2014 at 14:08.
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    (1) I never agree'd with dibs existing. It needs to go.

    (2) There are some situations in which kingdoms need to be understanding of that don't fall in the scope of what you would list as a hostile.

    If Kingdom A sends Kingdom B a dragon and Kingdom C waves Kingdom B the next tick, I think it's safe to assume that Kingdom C is in the wrong. Similarly if Kingdom A receives 10 razes from Kingdom B but no button is present because Kingdom B is 50% size of Kingdom A, I think it would be wrong of Kingdom C to wave Kingdom A. These are just 2 examples of situations that are possible to occur under your stipulations and not be considered **** play, or 2v1.

    Edit:
    We need the opinion of the truest utopian; UtopiaGirl.
    Last edited by Ezzerland; 25-02-2014 at 14:04.

  8. #8
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    Propro, how do we deal with those that run and fake war? (I am referencing those that use Fords aka ED & P2 last age)
    "The Utopian voice of reason" ~Ben (And he's an official moderator)

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    Does fake war not = deletion now?

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    Anri - I agree that mechanics can help fix **** play. The same way you have an ingame cf option you can make an ingame button for "nap" where you enter an input date (i.e. 2 weeks) and send a nap request to target kd, kds monarch receives a message with duration of nap and has "accept/decline" button. If accept is clicked two kds have in-game cf for 2 weeks that cant be broken as it is a mechanic and only option you have is access to intel. This would actually prevent dealbreak during duration cf. I doubt mods would want to code something like this and take the time to do it.

    You can also prevent attack and ops into war and eow with a mechanic but there is too much room for abuse. If there was -100% gains into war two kingdoms could set up a legitimate farm war and would have full protection from outside to abuse it.

    Ezzerland, I personally dont consider sending dragon without making any hits a hostile. I do agree with you that there are situations that do not fit strict definition of hostile but are represents de facto hostile that need to be evaluated on a case by case basis: i.e. Cow fight without button with dragons flying for instance.

    There have been many a time where I would initiate a cow fight vs. a top kd before giving button for strategic reasons.

    The main reason I discuss definition of hostile as it appears to be a problem lately in conjunction with dibs, there have been cases where a kingdom wants to dibs/claim another kd without giving button. I think this is BS because again if you are the aggressor and wish to fight someone you need to give them button. For example say BB has 48h notice with Sanc and Sanc has 72h notice with Pewpew. Sanc receives notice from Bb and gives 72h notice to Pewpew on same hc. Sanc is in fort and Bb doesn't want to hit in because its disadvantageous. BB needs to give Sanc hostile within 24h after notice expires or Sanc can wave and hostile pewpew and Bb must stay out. The problem here is you have situation where you don't want to give a kd hostile and properly establish the fight but want to "claim" them as a target after their fort runs out. This is really a bull**** move. If you want to start hostile with someone and be entitled to hit them them you need to establish hostile and give button. You cant claim someone by making 2 hits and starting a dragon while you wait for them to come out of fort, that doesn't fly. Again if you are the aggressor and want to fight someone you need to man up and give them Button. You cant waste 4 days of their time without hitting.

    Disclaimer: My example below uses specific kds and situations this age but is not meant to troll or attack anyone but to give accurate representation of events for analysis.


    Clear example of this was AMA vs pewpew early age. While AMA was in eow pewpew made a thread saying they want to fight AMA and started a dragon. This was early age and ama had open relations with many kds and could have waved almost any kd they wanted and picked their target based on strategic reasoning and goals. However, when eow expires and ama entered into fort, pewpew made 2 hits and "claimed ama" while pewpew was still pumping. Ama was ready to fight after eow was over as we were humans with tog and prep fast but has to wait an additional 3 days to begin the fight as pewpew would not make hits but we did not feel safe hitting another kd as even though we were clearly not hostile with pewpew, we were worried theyd still hit us if we hit another kd.

    This is a problem because you can effectively dibs and tie up a kd without being hostile to them and waste their time. If pewpew wanted to claim ama they should have made 8 hits and gave button. In this case if ama waved another kd and gave button pewpew was obligated to respect this real hostile because they never properly hostiled ama as 2 hits and dragon project and kd name tag "vs. Ama" is NOT hostile. We never tested pewpew to see if theyd hit into a conflict we would start with another kd but had indication that they would based on history and what was said in forums.

    Again this was used to give an example of analysis and is not meant to **** talk or troll anyone.

    In my opinion dibs and claiming without hostile is a joke and has to stop. If you want to fight someone and come after them you need to give button, it is only way to have your target. If a kd has many targets they can wave and you aren't willing to give button you do not have a right to claim this kd simply put.

    When I lead my own kds, anytime I wanted to fight someone, I would always give button even into fort because I wanted to be assured of target. For example when fury was supposed to fight bio eoa for #1, they received notice from inso. I wanted to stop inso from interfering and served them notice same time notice was given to them by fury. Inso had a sage setup with high bpa and good tm mods on core and were pumping in fort. I let inso know that it is our intention to hit them immediately after notice expires. When notice expired inso held and did not hit fury and we hit them into fort 8x giving button. We did not make 2 hits or start dragon or tag hostile without giving button. I knew if we failed to give button that inso would hit fury so we needed to make it clear cut. Mind you it was a DISADVANTAGE to give button and one sided ops into fort but we were the aggressors and wanted to claim target so we did it anyways.
    Last edited by Proteus; 25-02-2014 at 17:16.

  11. #11
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    I guess one main problem is also how it can mean 'auto-loss' if you 8 hit wave into a fortified kingdom if you know what you are doing. It should 'cost' less to give button -- then people would give it easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munk View Post
    I guess one main problem is also how it can mean 'auto-loss' if you 8 hit wave into a fortified kingdom if you know what you are doing. It should 'cost' less to give button -- then people would give it easier.
    Well the easy solution is to just not claim the kd sitting in fort with bull****. Accept that you do not have a claim to that kd and that they have the option to fight others if you are not willing to properly hostile them. It does not mean auto loss, just wait for them to end fort and if they aren't hostile go hit them. If they exit fort in the middle of the night to wave another kd, it's YOUR problem not theirs, no one is obligated to fight just because they receive notice. If you want reward of fighting that kd, take risk to hit them and give button. I always follow the rule if I notice someone with goal of warring them, I plan to give button...i dont expect to be given button. I may not always give it right away per strategic reasons but I always give it in the (unless we cf).

    Also advanced notice in the way of "we plan to fight you when cf expires" is fine but when you add the following "dont make any other plans" or "we are coming no matter what" that is dibs and ****play. What you should say is "we are going to try to pick a fight with you" when notice expire but you need to accept other kd may have options and unless you properly hostile them, they will get away.

  13. #13
    Forum Fanatic Elldallan's Avatar
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    One of the problems with notices and "dodging" is that if the kingdom serving the notice ends up training up and changing builds they're going feel entitled to unleash all those resources somewhere and if they have no other outlet for those resources they might end up double hostileing somebody or hitting into war. Regardless of what we think of that sort of behavior it's an increasingly likely outcome because of the shrinking competition and I think we should try to take any reasonable steps to avoid it.

    To that end I think it's fair to ask/require the noticed party to indicate that they have intentions to be otherwise occupied(such an indication obviously shouldn't come with a threat of punishment if they end up not being occupied when notice runs out) before minimum training time, it's a reasonable courtesy that can prevent a lot of grief and ****play and the noticing party can decide to not invest heavily into training up or they can decide to push ahead knowing that it's likely that they're going to be stood up and have to sit on their hands.
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    Elldallan -- what is your example is #1 kd vs #2 kd in charts. Can #2 then just say, "sorry we're going to fight another kingdom?" I think the issue here is also that for chart kingdoms -- who gets to war who is a big a factor to who wins the charts as the 'skill' of kingdoms. Further complicates things -- I don't have the answer.

  15. #15
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    I am curious what Elit thinks of this topic. I just want to see if his opinions, amongst others, have changed since the last time this was discussed.

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