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Thread: Why Is It Our Problem?

  1. #31
    Forum Addict makeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by himmlersberg View Post
    Frankly I don't feel it is our fight. I am not even sure why the USSR dissolved. I understood it collapsed but the public details do not add up to me.

    IMO, Russia hass the right to take all of Ukraine right now, the president, democratically elected by the people, went to Russia if he wants Russia army to invade and reinstall him as the leader, he has the right to do so. If the president of mexico was overthrown in a popular uprising and begged the usa to reinstall him, I'd have no issue sending in us troops to do the job. To protect democracy.
    That's fine as an initial emotional viewpoint.
    The question however becomes slightly more complicated when you actually examine it.
    While there has not been a due legal process of impeachment, the Ukraine parliament, which is the duly elected body, and as much as anything represents democracy, unanimously voted him out on a concentration of power being misused mandate.

    Where does legal technicalities end and democracy start?
    Well, most would contend in international law, that it starts with self determination on legally elected bodies.
    And based on that, he's f*cked, and the argument is a mere technicality.

  2. #32
    Forum Addict makeo's Avatar
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    And that's not even touching the invasion of a sovereign state debate. Does any country have the right to invade a country where the democratic body replaces the leader?

    There needs a compelling reason to do so.

    Concentration of power in an individual is a legitimate concern.

  3. #33
    Forum Addict makeo's Avatar
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    If David Cameron got voted out as Conservative leader in the UK through popular uprisings, I don't believe we'd have a mandate to invade the UK, even if he got down on his knees and wept like a child and offered all the services he was capable of while down there.

    Just imo.

  4. #34
    Post Fiend Tovarishch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makeo View Post
    *yawn*

    Crimea will at best end up an autonomous region in the Ukraine with a clear path way to succeed and join the Russian federation.Which if proportional democracy is introduced, can be avoided.
    Edit: The succession can be. ;)

    All other solutions have no pathway in international law/politics.

    At worst, it just succeeds unilaterally to the Russian federation based on a slight majority and people can lever it a bit.
    The Crimean parliament was unanimous in its decision to join Russia on the 6th of this month. But as far as the the Pro-Kiev administration supporters and the international community is concerned (or should be), they still are an autonomous region in Ukraine.

    As far as this being the U.S's problem: As an individual Nation, it isn't. But as a member of the International community, yes. It is the responsibility of the international community to see that these relations find a peaceful conclusion.
    Russia, as I see it, has seized this opportunity to flex muscle and invade a country that has long sort (and still seeks) true independence from the likes of the Bolsheviks and the Nationalists.

    How anyone could think that Russia has a right to impose itself on Ukraine is absurd. Yanukovich has been outed by his own party members and skulked off to Russia with his tail between his legs. As if that wasn't enough, he's wanted for the killing's that took place in Kiev, of which he is responsible as the then President.

    He failed his position as President, he failed the Ukrainian people and he failed Democracy (as it is).
    Tovarishch
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  5. #35
    Forum Addict makeo's Avatar
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    I think we have similar viewpoints to some extent.
    That democracy has broken down in the Ukraine, that the presidential office was too concentrated in power, and that the "invade Ukraine" argument lacks coherence.

    I'm also of an agreement that Crimea is, de facto, if it wasn't before, at least semi-autonomous.
    Which means that geo-politically and morally, it deserves a solution.

    What I would question, currently, is whether a semi-autonomous regional parliament can unilaterally decide to succeed without a referendum mandate.

  6. #36
    Forum Addict makeo's Avatar
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    It's an important issue, and one that I feel should, based on international law and precedent, be carefully executed.

    There is no doubt that Crimea is an ethnic Russian area in majority, and geo politically important.

    However there must be due process with checks and balances. At all levels.

    Autonomy, on all levels, seems an initial step within the usual framework.

    From there, the right for self-governing choices. This should be based on an overwhelming proportional basis.

    If that is achieved. Crimea is autonomous, and with the right to join the RF, but unlikely to do so.Possibly. Either way it will be correct.

  7. #37
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    nothing is really anyone else's problem I guess, if you look at it a certain way. It's "justified" by it being morally wrong for russia to trample ukranian sovereignty and go in with troops, a moral wrong that the rest of the world can't abide.


    The Jerks.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    You can live free and enjoy liberty without democracy.
    Case in point: The United States of America is a democratic republic, not a democracy. Democracy is a nightmare and it's a nightmare because people are stupid. I'll let Tommy Lee Jones explain that second part:
    Depends on where you live. Democracy in Fundamentalist Christian parts of the US: Freaking disaster. Democracy in more progressive parts: Better, though could be greatly improved.

    The problem isn't People with a capital P, it's culture. Our current cultural framework in North America is not conductive to making democracy work.

    People are not raised with the right mindset to be informed participants of our democratic process. In a way, we're like the Roman Empire: Complacent.

    People are not used to "objectively" (or more objectively) tackling complex political issues. They are often more interested on which candidate "looks" good or which best fulfills the very narrow scope of their interests. And they are certainly not used to putting their hard set opinions back into question in order to have an enlightened debate about our possibilities.
    Last edited by Magn; 16-03-2014 at 14:23.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tovarishch View Post
    The Crimean parliament was unanimous in its decision to join Russia on the 6th of this month. But as far as the the Pro-Kiev administration supporters and the international community is concerned (or should be), they still are an autonomous region in Ukraine.
    That does't even make sense, they voted to leave Ukraine. You cannot argue yanokovich who is elected shouldn't be president because the majority don't want him to be president and that crimea should be part of ukraine even though the majority of crimeans don't want to be in ukraine.

    As far as this being the U.S's problem: As an individual Nation, it isn't. But as a member of the International community, yes. It is the responsibility of the international community to see that these relations find a peaceful conclusion.
    There is a peaceful conclusion, let Russia take over Ukraine. Ukraine and Russia were in the same country Ussr for a long time anyways and they are neighbours and share alot culturally and linguistically, let Russia have Ukraine.

    Russia, as I see it, has seized this opportunity to flex muscle and invade a country that has long sort (and still seeks) true independence from the likes of the Bolsheviks and the Nationalists.

    How anyone could think that Russia has a right to impose itself on Ukraine is absurd. Yanukovich has been outed by his own party members and skulked off to Russia with his tail between his legs. As if that wasn't enough, he's wanted for the killing's that took place in Kiev, of which he is responsible as the then President.

    He failed his position as President, he failed the Ukrainian people and he failed Democracy (as it is).
    Yanokovich was democratically elected and is still legally the top Ukranian law enforcement official and head of Ukraine. If he wanted for killings good, he should wipe out all the protestors. Lets not forget these protestors just want ukraine in the eu.

  10. #40
    Post Fiend Tovarishch's Avatar
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    @ himmlersberg

    You honestly think that allowing Russia to assume control over Ukraine will end the crisis in Europe? Do you not see that this statement alone contradicts your point of view concerning Yanukovich? The Democratic body, as makeo said previously, ousted their leader - one cannot rule in exile.
    Take for example the Dalai Llama, though he currently heads the Tibetan Government in exile, most (if not all) countries do not recognise their legitimacy, which is unfortunate because they faced a similar situation with China those many years ago.

    What do you mean "let's not forget..."? You speak about the political instability as if it were easy to solve by clicking your fingers. Your remarks about the invasion of Ukraine a simple matter of trading cards, or letting a spoilt brat have what it wants. Absolute madness, the level of ignorance you've displayed in your responces.
    Tovarishch
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  11. #41
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    This is my point of view as a Brit, with Ukrainian friends.

    - Yanukovych was democratically elected.
    - The people who elected him, were tired of corruption, so they legally protested.
    - Yanukovych tried to use fear mongering to stop the protests by ordering his forces to KILL his own people.
    - Yanukovych fled the country after Ukrainians refused to back down, despite the threat of being killed.
    - Evidence of corruption on a grand scale. The protests were proven legit.
    - Temporary pro EU government take place (not sure how)
    - Yanukovych announces he is in Russia, states he is still Ukraine's rightful president, asks Russia to take military action.
    - Russia render lies and gross propaganda stating the country is in terror, with right wing extremists killing Russian speaking citizens.
    - My Ukrainian friends speak Russian as their first language, my kingdom mate is half Russian. The persecution is a complete fallacy.
    - Putin breaks several treaties and international laws when he invades Crimea to protect ethnic Russians from the Ukrainian fascists.
    - Putin annexes Crimea with an illegal, rushed referendum, whilst the peninsula has heavy pro Russian military presence.
    - Putin mocks the West's threats and sanctions.

    I know it is more complex than that. Obviously Russia are hugely concerned about the EU and NATO being directly on their border and losing Sevastopol is a huge deal as it is their only warm water port. But still his actions are worrying to say the least.

  12. #42
    Forum Fanatic Elldallan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPTK View Post
    I can't for the life of me figure out why the media insists on acting like Ukraine is an American problem.

    What basically happened is this:

    Ukraine has been, in some capacity or another, part of the Russian Empire for several hundred years. The Russian Empire (DBA The Soviet Union) fell apart in 1990. Recently a new Franco-German Empire (DBA The European Union) has emerged with the post-modern methodology of conquest by bureaucracy.

    Now this new Franco-German Empire attempted to incorporate Ukraine in its usual way. However, Russia is still playing by the old rules where things like tanks and planes matter. They want their old Empire back, and at any rate they sure as hell aren't going to let the Franco-Germans have it. The Franco-Germans are now absolutely shocked and appalled that another power will defend its interests with military power.

    But how is this the US's problem? If the Franco-German Empire wants Ukraine, they can go in there and fight for it. I don't think it makes any difference to the US whether the Franco-German Empire or the Russians control Ukraine.
    Because the US has been playing World Police for the past 50+ years and it's not something you can just stop doing when it's not convenient.
    Because they choose to make it their problem.
    Because the US as a member of NATO has a vested interest in nipping this in the bud since there are other NATO countries with sizeable russian minorities and it'd be better to have this fight over Ukraine than Estonia where the US could be forced to support Estonia and start WWIII if things went badly.

    Take your pick.

    Also because outright military invasions tends to destabilize things and because the US is a signatory of a 1991 agreement between UK, USA and Russia to intervene in protection of Ukraine if Ukraine was threatened, this deal was something Ukraine demanded in exchange for giving up the nuclear arsenal they got saddled with after the fall of the USSR.

    Quote Originally Posted by CPTK View Post
    This conflict has nothing to do with Democracy. If it did, we'd be on Russia's side. The pro-Russian guy was elected in a legit election. The pro-German people overthrew him without an election.
    No we wouldn't, there is nothing democratic about invading another country and annexing their territory, in fact it's the extreme opposite of democracy to seize what you want by force of arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by makeo View Post
    What I would question, currently, is whether a semi-autonomous regional parliament can unilaterally decide to succeed without a referendum mandate.
    Unless it explicitly has been given the power to do so it can't, plus there are all sorts of reports on foul play in that vote. A vote that is being forced under threat of arms can't be considered legitimate under any circumstance.

    Quote Originally Posted by himmlersberg View Post
    There is a peaceful conclusion, let Russia take over Ukraine. Ukraine and Russia were in the same country Ussr for a long time anyways and they are neighbours and share alot culturally and linguistically, let Russia have Ukraine.
    As history has shown thats a very precarious path. If the world were to give Putin Crimea will you like Chamberlain claim that you have created peace in our time? What about when Putin wants "Danzig"?
    We've seen this sort of buildup by despots and tyrants before, have we learned nothing from history?
    When is enough enough and where do we draw the line? Personally I think we should draw the line at unprovoked invasions of sovereign nations.
    I'm all for initiating crippling Sanctions against Russia and banning their banks from SWIFT, then in a few years they'll come creeping to the cross, Russia's economy is dependant on their oil exports which makes up 70% of the economy, and the remaining 30% is mostly trade with the EU, stop all that and Russia will wither.
    I don't think we should follow this so called three stage rocket EU leaders have come up with, Putin has too much invested in this and won't back down unless he's forced to, so send in the financial "nuclear option", show the fascist despot in the Kremlin that the west means business and that he's not gonna get away with his warmongering. This situation is pretty much identical to the buildup before WWII so lets not fall in the same rutted tracks we did 80 years ago.
    Last edited by Elldallan; 20-03-2014 at 14:56.
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  13. #43
    Member Maezegem's Avatar
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    Last edited by Palem; 26-05-2014 at 13:43.

  14. #44
    Forum Fanatic khronosschoty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    You can live free and enjoy liberty without democracy.
    Case in point: The United States of America is a democratic republic, not a democracy. Democracy is a nightmare and it's a nightmare because people are stupid. I'll let Tommy Lee Jones explain that second part:
    LOOL so true!

  15. #45
    Forum Fanatic khronosschoty's Avatar
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    Ukraine has been hijacked by Neo Nazis that hate Russians! So why is the USA supporting them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Araqiel View Post
    This is my point of view as a Brit, with Ukrainian friends.

    - Yanukovych was democratically elected.
    - The people who elected him, were tired of corruption, so they legally protested.
    - Yanukovych tried to use fear mongering to stop the protests by ordering his forces to KILL his own people.
    - Yanukovych fled the country after Ukrainians refused to back down, despite the threat of being killed.
    - Evidence of corruption on a grand scale. The protests were proven legit.
    - Temporary pro EU government take place (not sure how)
    - Yanukovych announces he is in Russia, states he is still Ukraine's rightful president, asks Russia to take military action.
    - Russia render lies and gross propaganda stating the country is in terror, with right wing extremists killing Russian speaking citizens.
    - My Ukrainian friends speak Russian as their first language, my kingdom mate is half Russian. The persecution is a complete fallacy.
    - Putin breaks several treaties and international laws when he invades Crimea to protect ethnic Russians from the Ukrainian fascists.
    - Putin annexes Crimea with an illegal, rushed referendum, whilst the peninsula has heavy pro Russian military presence.
    - Putin mocks the West's threats and sanctions.

    I know it is more complex than that. Obviously Russia are hugely concerned about the EU and NATO being directly on their border and losing Sevastopol is a huge deal as it is their only warm water port. But still his actions are worrying to say the least.
    The Neo Nazi government that now controls Western Ukraine staged a unlawful coup and violated Ukraine law.
    Last edited by khronosschoty; 29-05-2014 at 23:38.

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