AW Defense as a Mystic

[Slayerviper]

I'm just running through a few scenario's and I can't come up with a WT defense that's worthwhile against AW without gibbling my magic needs. Give or take is 10-12 tpa mod (mid age) enough to stop most AW's against 20-30 tpa halfers or will they still eat through that like nothing?

[Elanesse]

I'm just planning on playing a full T/M. Obviously most of my focus will be on the mage aspect. But run a decent raw tpa, like 5-6, crank up the sci, run about 15% TDs. That would be my suggestion.

[ofgortens]

30 mtpa halfer will eat through your 10-12 mtpa on a mystic if you dont have WT.

[Slayerviper]

6 raw + meh science (I plan conservative) + honor bonuses + 20% dens = about 12 mod give or take. I was just checking if 12 tpa would help ratio wise... e.g. you need roughly 3 to 4 times the wpa of your target to pull off easy MV's, MS, NM. Wasn't sure if it worked that way for thieving and was hoping that AW could need considerable higher amount of TPA to be very successful... then again 18 tpa is a lot even if it's only 2:1.

The other option is running crap tpa and getting WT's to catch 35% the time and 50% damage reduction but 1/3 isn't that great... I'd prefer 40-50% catch but it takes up too much space to pull that off since towers are no longer double (It's been awhile since I was a mage).

So which is better then?

[ofgortens]

best would be to push 3-4 rtpa as mage with 20-25% WT if you can fit them in while tossing saph drakes at them. It depends on the kd you are going up against and the number or rogues, etc. obviously.

[Persain]

As a mystic u cant really stop AW/theif ops unless you go elf/feary tact. The last time my kd had any real success we ran 90BE 35% WT+CS. Had to run 1 rtpa, a significant amount of homes and get aided runes.

Your best bet is to simply op easier and easier targets as the war goes on or run 7+ raw wpa so AW takes forever.

[Cry0]

I asked a similar question in tactics and didn't get much of a answer.

I think to answer the question you really have to look deeper into the scenario. Are you talking about a KD with 4-5 rogues? Are they halfer rogues? Are you a 20 prov kd? 25 prov kd?

In my world at the 20 prov kd war level the most likely scenario is 2 rogues, more rogues would likely mean they are running an attacker deficit which means you can probably address the rogues directly, aka chain the rogues.

Now assuming 2 rogues, the first thing I would think you do is fire ball their population away. This does 3 things I can think of off the top of my head 1) it screws their BE so their TD become less effective = they fail more and more thieves die. 2) It screws their econ so they cannot afford new thieves as easily (halfer rogues have half priced thieves, yeah.) 3) It leaves them with a smaller pool of peasants so they cannot draft soldiers to retrain thieves as easily. These 3 combine to mean more thieves die, less thieves get retrained so while your WPA is falling so is their TPA, might mean they take out one of your mystics but that is it. To counter pop control, thieves try to kidnap peasants, well again more chances for the cycle of thieves dying and that also means they are using stealth for ops that are not killing your wizards.

That seems to be the pretty standard route to halfer control - my question is would trying to tornado acres be worthwhile assuming you got mana & runes? This would compound the whole ****ty economy thing plus possibly further lower their build's effectiveness. I was told it wasn't worth while but not sure if that is just someone saying what they heard someone say at some point in time or if that is backed by fact.

Also you can expose thieves on them if your t/m activity is stronger than their thieves and you can expose them at start of tics =)

[natebane]

your best defense will be the number of mages you are running. as long as you have a decent number of mages it won't be very profitable for them to target you with AW. another defense is having your attackers spam Expose thieves if they are running alot of rogues. and one other way i can think of would be to just run halfer mystic

[Andurilas]

Casting on Rogues isn't always so easy. You could blow a lot of mana/runes trying to take them down that way. Better to run WTs and make them pay for what they get.

[Spahrep]

Expose thieves can drop existing stealth by as much as 30%. If you catch them at the start of a conflict, you can really drop a lot.
Other than that WT WT WT :\ Its my least favourite part of mystic. TPA can stop a non halfer rouge, but with halfers, ET + WT + hope :\

[noobium]

The best solution is to landchain the rogues before they can do anything. Don't halfass the chain, make sure the rogue is overpopped severely in one wave or it results in a lot of unnecessary crap. This obviously requires setting up attackers with the offense needed to hit t/ms, which they should be doing anyway.

Other solutions:

Watchtowers is the obvious one, and one of the most powerful.

Sapphire or Gold dragon. I find Gold to be a lot more useful for defensive purposes, since it nerfs everything for everyone instead of just TPA/WPA. Sapphire is better if you already have a t/m advantage and want to do as much damage as possible - particularly in rogue vs. rogue matchups.

Expose thieves is decent as a holding action, until a more permanent solution can be arranged. Timing ET can be difficult though without keeping track of login times.

Massacres, which works better if a landchain is impractical. This has to be followed up with ops to stick, otherwise the t/m can and will bounce back.

Tornado and Fireball, which drain the Rogue's economy and force them to use stealth to recover. Nado also for the same reasons as Gold dragon, albeit more localized. Although Amnesia is difficult to access without picking a terrible personality, using Amnesia before an op run can inflict some really obnoxious damage on t/ms. Don't forget about Vortex too, especially against Halflings - negating the buffs a Halfer would want to use can go a long way, especially for landchains.

Better science, obviously. The kingdom with 2x as many books is going to have a substantial lead in everything, including thievery. Although it requires picking an otherwise crappy personality, Amnesia can be useful for creating temporary science weaknesses, in addition to being incredibly aggravating.

Win the economy war, so that rogues can't retrain tpa or rebuild their buildings without draining too much of their kingdom's cash, and your provinces are in better shape. Attrition ops like MS and Riots are particularly helpful, as is fireball and kidnap. Of course, by destroying the provinces that support a rogue like attackers and mages, it helps. Depending on the situation, attackers or mages may present a more immediate threat than rogues.

Don't be afraid to risk your thieves kidnapping or rioting other t/ms and rogues. Riots might be relatively expensive, but if 1/2 riots succeed then it is usually a net positive.

Build a better Rogue and prop/kidnap/ns depending on what you need done.

All of these feed into each other, with the last one being the ultimate goal - unless it is possible to simply destroy all other rogues via landchains, massacre, magic, or building up too much thief/mage defense to be realistically taken down. However, late in war, a superthief that can op with impunity is going to extend a lead further and further.

Faery Rogues are tougher to take down, do more long-term damage, and are far more versatile than Halfer Rogues. Halfer Rogues are more dangerous when they can be fed, and are more immediate threats to both defensive provnices and attackers, but they are much easier to disrupt through the above methods. Because the Halfer Rogue needs to play with all elites in order to not die, their attacking ability is suspect without careful planning.

Note however that a kingdom with capable rogues can utilize their ops towards similar ends, and it isn't always the best idea to go straight for AW.

[Cry0]

Thanks for another well thought out response. There needs to be a #noobium irc channel.

[topsy's revenge]

Feel free to ask any q over in #cromulent too. Zaup or I or some other poor bored soul is normally idling there.

[brickwolfman]

. and one other way i can think of would be to just run halfer mystic

good advise :)