How long will CR keep running away from AMA and BB?

[karaso]

How can that happen and i would not even go there as i am in CR. =)

Oh, i forgot to add also: You still sound as noob as Nesta. :)

[fookyih]

there are 2 fail top human kds last age. Why is poeple still opt to run a human kd? :P

[protector]

We aren't asking that pyro make AMA or BB CF us. That would be a silly demand. If pyro is claiming that, they're misunderstanding.

We're telling pyro that AMA and BB are setting the fair price for CFs in the top right now, and we would ask for the same price.

<topsy> so soundsl ike maxi/me are thinking same thing as zauper was earlier when talking with you. We'll cf with you if you'll give bb whatever they need from us for a cf and if we can get a cf with ama for same amount
^this implies pyro has to give BB the acres we'd want from Havoc. iirc some other log implied you wouldn't cf pyro unless ama/bb would cf havoc.

Fwiw, none of my current CFs are anywhere near what your CF 'terms' have been last age. We do not demand 10-15% land from a kingdom like you have, just to 'allow' them to war someone else.

[Sheister]

Havent even bothered to check this with zauper, but even if it is, does agreeing to talk mean you cant wave now? So now agreeing to talk means you can put up cows in agressive stance while beeing our size?
Dream on cj.

About the legacy stuff., good thing there are logs then. Full logs. Not the kind legacy used to try and get people to hit us while we were hostile with them. In the case of legacy, they were bigger then us with more military and more pessies and we waved into fort. Howmany more advantages are needed? They made it clear from the 1st hour of the conflict they had every intention to war us.
Even without the dealbreak from last age we would have waved them, and even without the dealbreak from last age legacy would have crumbled like it did.

And pyro? You were well within declarerange when we waved. And your tried to put up cows which could later be used against us.... What should we do? Not wave out of the kindness of our hearts? Not wave because ehm.......... I actualy dont really know a reason not to wave.

Maximouse... No one tried to get people to hit into you while hostile. I asked if someone else would hit you and take you off our backs if Legacy offered cf, no hits no ops and played dead (aka, no hostile). No one had time, so it never happened. So everyone can leave legacy out of this. As for clarity to war, I told you at the start that I could not offer more land for cf, all I could offer was the 900 ish you already took. I think you now realize I was not making that up after negotiating with the other leadership that succeeded me. I then, did the talk tough thing because it's all I could do and my tough talk was something like, "we are going to retal from fort while I wait for activity so I can war you. ". So not that tough....

Not arguing anything else said as it's all pyro stuff I know nothing about.

[Darkz Azn]

tag oddplay for cf =)

[StratOcastle]

The diplo here is a circus. My intuition tells me this will look fancy and feel ghetto.

[faegan]

Havent even bothered to check this with zauper, but even if it is, does agreeing to talk mean you cant wave now? So now agreeing to talk means you can put up cows in agressive stance while beeing our size?
Dream on cj.

It's poor form; telling someone you'll meet them to resolve matters and then without prior warning or cancelling the meeting you wave in. Really poor form, at least have the courtesy to say: meeting is off, we wave.

Legacy: I don't care, however I will take Angel's word over any CR member's word 100 out of 100 times.

And pyro? You were well within declarerange when we waved.

Yes, but you are smart enough to see that we were nowhere near ready for a war against you lot so you could wave until kingdom-come. We wanted to CF you at a reasonable price, which you declined because it would limit your options in the future. Yes, I'm guessing you'd even try for round #3 if given the opportunity.

And your tried to put up cows which could later be used against us.... What should we do?
Not wave out of the kindness of our hearts? Not wave because ehm.......... I actualy dont really know a reason not to wave.

Perhaps you could not wave out of the kindness of your hearts and clear the air a bit? All you did now was make 100% sure you'll have a kingdom that will FSU until whenever. All it took was for you lot to offer/accept a fair CF deal.

[faegan]

And another thing: you keep whining about us putting up banks in Aggressive stance and yet you are exploring 2 elves and a faery in Fortified.

[DonJuan]

But they didn't...so now we can make it official this age; we can expect no CFs.with CR and from we have seen from then last age...CR cannot be trusted on their word once they have their advantage.

Good thing to know going forward.

[Zauper]

And another thing: you keep whining about us putting up banks in Aggressive stance and yet you are exploring 2 elves and a faery in Fortified.

Exploring 300a on a prov is quite different from putting up a bank.

No one is whining about it. We were talking with you about whether we wanted to CF to let you put up a bank. You guys then went and put up a bank....and hit into our 100/150 pt hostile. Did you expect us to not react?

Here's how the diplo went on that day -- Procy is in the same timezone as me:
2PM - procy sapp's me to tell me he wants to do diplo.
I reply, we're thinking something like this, I won't be on IRC for ~18 hours, PM topsy.
Procy replies, I can't until tonight, work is busy
at 9 PM, I check my phone and see orders for undead to hold armies and sapp procy to get online to talk to topsy
At 11 PM, procy sapp's me upset that we waved.

I see opportunity for your determined negotiator to speak to us before waving, and him not doing so.

We offered you multiple fair CF deals, you didn't seem particularly interested in them though. In fact, last I heard neither kd was hitting to finish negotiations (though I heard this prior to you guys resuming hitting, so shrug).

[TheOne]

We offered you multiple fair CF deals, you didn't seem particularly interested in them though.

So, want to let the community what's the fair CF deals?

Probably something along the lines of : you will pay for my CF to AMA/BB. I will take whatever acres they want from you.

-cJ

[Zauper]

So, want to let the community what's the fair CF deals?

Probably something along the lines of : you will pay for my CF to AMA/BB. I will take whatever acres they want from you.

-cJ

If the community (read: AMA/BB) determine that the cost of one CF to put up cows is 8k acres, then yes, it is fair for us to ask you for 8k acres to give you a CF to put up cows.

Definitionally our ask is fair since it's pegged to other people's ask.

prot:
I see that that is the implication, but the reality is it is an irrelevant distinction. We'd be happy to take them from pyro and then give them to you, or you could take them directly. It doesn't actually impact either transaction.

I suspect the log you saw was more along the lines of 'there's no point in us letting you get cows if we aren't going to be able to put them up since it will give you an advantage later in the age' <-- which is true, and relates to those CFs.

We also didn't demand 10-15% of anyone's land to allow to them to war someone else. Please make up more things, though.

We told people we intended to wave them when our CF expired, and they asked us to not hit them for 4+ weeks, and we told them that if we weren't collecting for that long, we wanted more. We never asked for more than we could take in 1 wave at the time of the negotiations.

[Procy]

Exploring 300a on a prov is quite different from putting up a bank.
We offered you multiple fair CF deals, you didn't seem particularly interested in them though. In fact, last I heard neither kd was hitting to finish negotiations (though I heard this prior to you guys resuming hitting, so shrug).

~4 days ago
[1:57pm] Procy|laptop: The starting number I?d throw around is
[1:57pm] Procy|laptop: about 10% of our land
[1:57pm] Procy|laptop: I think I could sell that to the boys :)
[1:57pm] zapalt: that?s ~2.5k? i haven?t looked, dunno how big you are after being settlers
[1:57pm] Procy|laptop: I?d want the 2-2.5k range yeah
[1:58pm] Procy|laptop: and considering we can offer you those acres where you?d like to have them
[1:58pm] Procy|laptop: I think that?s a pretty fair opening offer
[1:58pm] zapalt: godly is on board with something in that range, i?ll talk to the folks we?ll all be on over the next few hours. but we probably wouldn?t want to take them for a few days since we?re likely to be either in fort or hostile :p

CR never actually counter-offered us anything for a CF, I made the only offer that stood as a 10% tax of current acres.

Your only counter was "whatever acres BB/AMA wants for a cf we take from you" or something of the like and you agreed that a nebulous top end was not acceptable in diplomacy as if AMA/BB combined were 20k acres, you could accept without hesitation and you could then expect 20k from us and that was unacceptable even to you.



So as was said, your only acceptable CF was one in which you could essentially dictate any amount of acres from us and we had to accept. Surely anyone with even half a brain can see that as a purely unacceptable offer.

[Zauper]

CR never actually offered us anything for a CF, I made the only offer that stood as a 10% tax of current acres.

Your only counter was "whatever acres BB/AMA wants for a cf we take from you" or something of the like and you agreed that a nebulous top end was not acceptable in diplomacy as if AMA/BB combined were 20k acres, you could accept without hesitation and you could then expect 20k from us and that was unacceptable even to you.

So as was said, your only acceptable CF was one in which you could essentially dictate any amount of acres from us and we had to accept. Surely anyone with even half a brain can see that as a purely unacceptable offer.

You'll note one thing you say (that if BB/AMA combined were 20k we would expect 20k) is directly contradicted by your screenshot: that we were only asking for the acres to make up one of them. (It's that pesky word 'OR') Why? Because they were setting the value of a CF to put up a cow.

If you think AMA/BB are reasonable, then you had nothing to be concerned about.

If not, it's only 'unreasonable' because other people are setting the value of CFs at an 'unreasonable' amount.

And, to my prior point:
You could have gotten on IRC and spoken to someone, both times when prompted, prior to being waved.

[Heiney]

If the community (read: AMA/BB) determine that the cost of one CF to put up cows is 8k acres, then yes, it is fair for us to ask you for 8k acres to give you a CF to put up cows.

Definitionally our ask is fair since it's pegged to other people's ask.

So in an extreme scenario where a kd is 8k in size and another being 40k, are you gonna have to kill the entire kd just for the CF?