rate the races

[tetley]

....

Did this guy seriously just give cleric a 7/100 and tactician a 31/100?
How is orc rated 45 points higher than dwarf?
Are we playing the same game?

[shadoweminence]

That's his rank based on 1v1 potential only

Did this guy seriously just give cleric a 7/100 and tactician a 31/100?
How is orc rated 45 points higher than dwarf?
Are we playing the same game?

[Landro]

That's his rank based on 1v1 potential only

That's just stupid. This is a team pvp game

[StratOcastle]

We never really talk about team in here. I note most criticism is based in some blob of core dynamics. It's this that makes debating a single provinces strat a bit futile.

Honestly, where's the:
A) Growing Cows Workbench?
B) or You Can Be Killer 4A Day Checklist?
C) how about Noobs Guide to Superwave Preparation?
D) WTF is Growth Grimoire.
E) Dealing with Bottomfeeder Guilt: being ok with bullying.
F) The 6 Steps to Waving Max Gains and Saying Yes to Life.
G) How to Turn Cows into Burps and Stomach Rubs service manual.

[noobium]

Yeah, a lot of race/personality picks have to be picked based on what they contribute to a kingdom of 20-25 provinces, not what the provinces do themselves. A lot of personalities have good individual bonuses on paper, but the best personalities this age work for what they do to a kingdom collectively (namely, Tactician for lining up attack times, useless for a solo province but great if most or all of a kingdom's core are tactician).

Sooooooooo...

Sage! They get dissed pretty bad, but I liked playing my Faery/Sage when I had it. The only problem is that none of the other Faeries picked Sage and the rest of the kingdom setup was balls because of people wanting to run silly race/personalities. I wish I had put my foot down and made sure people picked a better setup than what we wound up using. If we had something like 4 fae/sage and 4 human/sage, that would have been pretty sweet assuming the people who knew how2play were operating those provinces.

Starting with 40k free books is quite underrated... +10% income at start of age is pretty useful. It definitely takes some work for the Sage to protect themselves against learn rape, but once that is done the Sage has a pretty nice mTPA/mWPA advantage, especially with effective Amnesia use or using some Learn rape of your own to extend science disparity.

[smercjd]

Whoops I forgot to put humans! Sorry - I think it was 19 (I had it written down somewhere) - they were very similar to dwarves. Maybe it was 24 - something like that.

[smercjd]

What's your rating for humans?

Did this guy seriously just give cleric a 7/100 and tactician a 31/100?
How is orc rated 45 points higher than dwarf?
Are we playing the same game?

Yes...I did. -- Did you read why? You get what clerics get with 13% hospitals...That's their only real bonus.
Orc -- free draft, more gains, more kills...higher offense - they will eat dwarves for breakfast.

Run a dwarf cleric versus an orc war hero... 1v1, orc will win.

[noobium]

dwarf/cleric and orc/attacker can go many ways. dwarf is not really made for 1vs1, it's made for having better defensive buildings which implies that they're strong when they would be targetted by multiple provinces - or multiple kingdoms.

i wouldn't rule out the dwarves winning against a wide variety of targets, including orcs. assuming the same support provinces most low-tier kingdoms use - elves and maybe a few faeries that don't reach their full potential - i'd probably give it to the dwarves, if the dwarves have science as they should have. depends on what the orcs are paired with, as a kingdom with only orc/undead attackers is immensely problematic. orcs paired with humans is pretty effective, with the humans opening chains and the orcs being able to avoid too many incoming acres.

btw war hero on orc is a terrible pick. the best orc by far is tactician, with warrior and merchant both being pretty good. the others are either garbage or at best a really suboptimal fit (cleric)

[smercjd]

wait why is orc war hero a bad pick? free draft so you can always have it at emergency...and -50% training time...you never run out of army if you build appropriately. An orc war hero with some armouries could wreak havoc compared to others who have to pay for draft.
Immune to Dragon, Immune to Plague...You can have an attacker with self-sustaining econ that will win in the long run.
As for cleric AND tactitian - you can build hospitals and barracks and you have both of their bonuses already. Best pick for orcs are war hero and warrior IMO.

[noobium]

wh on a race that has difficulty securing defense is just asking to be contained one way or another, and without peasants or aid they don't get soldiers trained to useful stuff... never mind that because of shaky defense, training troops is always going to be problematic. nothing sucks more than having recently trained troops flush down the toilet due to a chain, or nightstrike/propped away.

mass-training troops on provinces which cannot be secured is one of those major ghetto leaks that hold kingdoms back, especially when the thing being mass-trained is defspec. any good kingdom will just look at a defense-heavy orc as a convenient farm for prop/ns. the only time to do that is when most thief power in a kingdom has been neutralized, and nightmares are kept down to a manageable level.

orc picking tactician is a no-brainer, because they would either want to synchronize attack times (no rax, all attackers pick tactician/qf race/avian), or they would want to hit as fast as possible in which case they would want heavy barracks. it is not a strict landsave, because tactician attack time takes effect regardless of building efficiency or situations where having barracks is impractical (say, after getting heavily landchained or bloated with no money to build acres/more important things to build). the same can be said of clerics, but the cleric bonus is (a) less useful than attack time, and (b) stacking hospitals with cleric bonus is a lot less useful.

the other obvious reason for tactician is cs+rm, which should force an mv before major op runs. against ghettos that don't vortex properly it's ridiculously strong, and cs+rm will probably take effect for meteor/riots cover.

the wh immunities shouldn't mean much to an orc, because most kingdoms should be slaying dragons rather than tanking, and plague is less of a worry for orcs than other races.

[Bukharistan]

I've never understood the use of WH tbh. Plague can be fixed with NB, dragons should be killed within 1-2 hours. Leaves the -50% training time, which doesn't really matter too much in war IMO. Compared that to lower attack time or higher OME and 1 general...

[StratOcastle]

I like WH because it offers huge potential that largely goes unnoticed. Not that I'm higher on WH than anything else, but I never forget that they can accelerate train on top of reduced time. If you have the money honey you can work with war spoils. So these things are instant bolstering in a world of 12 hr waves. This is specifically why I like WH on something other than dwarf. Dwarf is great for WH played conventionally, but to pull off a fortified war spoil zone with specs you need ToG and acceleration option on buildings to.

I stink at math but I know some growth kingdoms harness enough gold to utilize this in a gap security scenario. I'm not a WH this age so I haven't had the opportunity to experiment yet.

If a willing WH wouldn't mind accelerate training a small number of soldiers and letting us know how long it takes it would be cool. I realize there's some calculation I'm supposed to be aware of, but I like to see the thing in actual use in case there's a bug.

[noobium]

wh for human, elf, halfling, faery is okay. maybe dwarf. for orc and undead it's horrid, because orc/undead are giant piles of offense that will almost never sit on secure defense.