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Thread: rate the races

  1. #31
    Forum Addict crease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landro View Post
    Isn't that cute........ but it's wrong!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yqUpypQwGs

    Human should enter war with as many elites as possible. Keep some elites at home for def (they have 4 def just like specs) and during war, train specs so you can free up elites for offense. Doing so will probably only use up the spec credits you've been hoarding so you can use your income for funding.
    Spec credits only last so long. Even so, some ppl war straight oop, thus saving spec creds isnt a viable strat as there isnt enough gc. Anyway, a human doesnt even get income in war until he has exhausted those credits, therefore the argument is invalid ;)
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by crease View Post
    Having played a dwarf merch and sat a human tact and compared both to orc merch, the orc can easily train the most troops when all provs have 10ppa (in war.) The human was the worst of the lot. The numbers are even less favourable at lower econ.
    Why would a human have 10 ppa? Kidnap is an op I would use which is far easier as a human than an orc

    Spec credits only last so long. Even so, some ppl war straight oop, thus saving spec creds isnt a viable strat as there isnt enough gc. Anyway, a human doesnt even get income in war until he has exhausted those credits, therefore the argument is invalid ;)
    There's only 1 war oop, vs the other 4,5,6 for the rest of your age, not to mention the random tm during oow, how is that not a valid strat? And how dies income correlate to credits, a spec is 350 Gcs I don't need credits it's the icing on the cake
    Last edited by Jo3MoMMa; 24-04-2014 at 14:45. Reason: seriously

  3. #33
    Forum Addict crease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo3MoMMa View Post
    Why would a human have 10 ppa? Kidnap is an op I would use which is far easier as a human than an orc



    There's only 1 war oop, vs the other 4,5,6 for the rest of your age, not to mention the random tm during oow, how is that not a valid strat? And how dies income correlate to credits, a spec is 350 Gcs I don't need credits it's the icing on the cake
    Im not sure i understood anything in this. Only that OOP means as soon as war protection drops you wave another ghetto. As for the ppa deal, perhaps cause you are population limited you are stuck at 10 ppa ;) Anyway, kidnap is not significantly easier on human at all, certainly not till late age. Even thats assuming a human can acquire decent enough science to make the orc debuff a big penalty.


    For example, a 10 ppa human made 130k income from tick including tog. Emergency draft cost it 63k. Orc made 105k, human 67k. If you lower ppa to a more reasonable control of 5 ppa, the orc can still go emergency draft, aid out excess solds and out train you getting gc in exchange for those solds. Human is weak. There is no 2 ways about it.

    Honestly at 10 ppa, a non merch orc has the same econ as a 10 ppa human. Enjoy that perspective.

    Also. Theres is a basic assumption that humans do produce gc, so their econ will be targeted more heavily :)
    Last edited by crease; 24-04-2014 at 15:20.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by crease View Post
    Im not sure i understood anything in this.
    but you still feel qualified to dismiss his arguments.

    Only that OOP means as soon as war protection drops you wave another ghetto.
    OOP means when you leave protection and the age actually starts. There's only 1 OOP for a province.

    As for the ppa deal, perhaps cause you are population limited you are stuck at 10 ppa ;)
    I'm going to assume you mean peasants per acre and population per acres. 10 peas/acre means your army is far too weak. A war-ready province has about 6-7 peas/acre.

    Anyway, kidnap is not significantly easier on human at all, certainly not till late age. Even thats assuming a human can acquire decent enough science to make the orc debuff a big penalty.
    Considering that Humans have +20% science effectiveness, Sage is a natural choice for a Human prov. That means they start off with a very nice pile of books and get an eff. boost on top of that.

    For example, a 10 ppa human made 130k income from tick including tog. Emergency draft cost it 63k. Orc made 105k, human 67k. If you lower ppa to a more reasonable control of 5 ppa, the orc can still go emergency draft, aid out excess solds and out train you getting gc in exchange for those solds.
    Running emergency draft all war is just silly. You'll just deplete your supply of peas really fast and build up large stockpiles of soldiers, which my Human prov would be all too happy to NS.

    Human is weak. There is no 2 ways about it.
    You are misguided. There is no 2 ways about it ;-)

    Honestly at 10 ppa, a non merch orc has the same econ as a 10 ppa human. Enjoy that perspective.
    At 10 peas/acre you have an underpowered province regardless of which race you picked

    Also. Theres is a basic assumption that humans do produce gc, so their econ will be targeted more heavily :)
    Which is why you need more than 1 Human province. They can't keep all of them down.
    This is my province. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    My province is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
    My province, without me, is useless. Without my province, I am useless.
    I must attack hard with my province. I must attack harder than my enemy who is trying to pk me. I must pk him before he pk's me. I will...

  5. #35
    Forum Addict crease's Avatar
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    Obv peas/acre. Obv this is after you grew in war. Obv. Just obv.Ill stick to dwarf, you can keep ur slightly better turtle and fight my ghetto. Our orc merches and undead warriors just beat human core in econ war. Nuff said, humans are weak as crap.
    Last edited by crease; 24-04-2014 at 18:30.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by crease View Post
    Obv peas/acre. Obv this is after you grew in war. Obv. Just obv.Ill stick to dwarf, you can keep ur slightly better turtle and fight my ghetto. Our orc merches and undead warriors just beat human core in econ war. Nuff said, humans are weak as crap.
    We should war :-)
    This is my province. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    My province is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
    My province, without me, is useless. Without my province, I am useless.
    I must attack hard with my province. I must attack harder than my enemy who is trying to pk me. I must pk him before he pk's me. I will...

  7. #37
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    Old Human sucked but it's still better than New Halfer.

    edit: should run plenty of humans, at least 5 but probably 8 if not the whole core. any personality except Merchant or Rogue works, and even the latter might find some obscure use. as mentioned the key is to go into war with mostly elites and train defspec + thieves... all of those humans can do easier unless they are population-controlled, and money is more fluid than cost reduction bonuses.
    noobs cry that their human can't army-in-army-out mindlessly like UD. if they learn to pump and learn when to send out heavy elites, most of their problems with human are resolved.

    edit pt2: undead kinda blows still. they're really low-maintenance and able to keep hitting with minimal support, but the inability to steal just kills them in any long war. they're pretty functional casters though, and many provinces don't want to risk plague to hit an undead on land defense so that leads to fewer massacres or learn attacks in such situations. i wouldn't want more than 8-10 undead though, and even that many is a bit too much.

    orc/merch is meh. orcies cannot hold on to much economy and the sci penalty nerfs their merchanting somewhat.
    Last edited by noobium; 24-04-2014 at 19:37.

  8. #38
    Forum Addict crease's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landro View Post
    We should war :-)
    You know where to find me ;)

    We just kept 12 human core provs and 2 human banks on no econ for over a week.
    Last edited by crease; 24-04-2014 at 19:11.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetley View Post
    Regarding avians, I don't know if you mean on a single province level or in terms of a kingdom-wide strat. I mean if you have 10 avian merchants vs 10 undead tacticians you can imagine what the total offensive capabilities of those provinces would be after 3 days of war. The disparity would be quite large. Avians are no more effective at holding land than an undead is, but they are quicker at becoming fat, easier to NS, and their offense dies faster.

    If you're playing Avian Merchant... why wouldn't you just play a dwarf cleric or tact? With QF and possibly some rax you can come close to matching the speed of an avian with better stats otherwise. What relevant provs are avians massacring after a long war?
    Why would I pick an Avian over a dwarf? I can think of a few reasons...

    : -35% attack times and 20+% barracks at solid BE, reducing the attacking time on massacre/learn to under 6hrs @ about 90% BE. In long wars, even chained attackers can get their BE up through clever build manipulation or just from the effects of finally gaining peasants. This is also done without qf, and Dwarf can't always cast qf on their hits in a long war.
    : Better utilization of Merchant credits - the Avian attacks more often and can actually use build credits (and rush build, which is pretty useful).
    : Cheaper 6 point elite. Around 5-7 days into war, native economy on provinces can recover to the point where training elites outright on attackers is viable.
    : nw-efficiency, which isn't too big a deal but does matter slightly in small vs. small battles.
    : massacre attackers in a long war is useful, because in a long enough war, attackers are just cycling through acres and have a hard time causing serious overpopulation that an attacker can't recover from. through massacre, the small attackers can start opping other small attackers and gain an advantage at the bottom, where the top t/ms don't want to use too much of their stealth and mana. you can do some massacres, pick smalls to fatten, and leave them as acre banks for any small province that would face overpopulation. while everyone can do this, avians have an edge.

    Of course Avians have bad offense after 3-4 days of war - they have bad offense at the start of war too, it's their hat. Avians are really useful at countering other attackers and attacker/thieves, against whom they can usually manage a thief advantage and can shred down faster. They're always going to suck horribly against t/ms and strong turtles, and it's rough for a week. In long wars where native economy can start to build up, the Avians can bounce back... Undead too, but Undead inability to thieve leads to a lot of lost stealth usage and those tiny shreds of rune/gc/gold theft and kidnapping will accumulate in a long conflict.

    It's not always the easiest strategy to use, and the standard attacker options are probably better for most situations. It also implies someone with no life is running the Avian, who is willing to micromanage their province and take some risks with t/m ops. Avians have to be watchful of bloating and think about ways to counteract bloat, rather than letting themselves become giant farms for the top. Dwarf is a lot easier to avoid screwing up, and orcs/ud can tear down threats about as efficiently and troll at the bottom well enough. For early war, Avians being able to launch their second wave of attacks sooner can mean removing an attacker threat to your top before it can strike at your top, while orc/ud/dorf are better at taking down said top.

    Other that that; Avian/Merch are probably the best overall killer oop due to their cheap elite and birthrates, although that would be a really niche use and competing with top growth kingdoms is beyond my ghetto mind...
    Last edited by noobium; 24-04-2014 at 20:31.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by crease View Post
    You know where to find me ;)

    We just kept 12 human core provs and 2 human banks on no econ for over a week.
    banks have been overrated for quite some time now.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    banks have been overrated for quite some time now.
    While i agree banks are overrated, they were buffed heavily through massacre changes this age. Just takes 1 smart individual to show the way.
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  12. #42
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    Humans are awesome btw. They aren't just for tog - 6/4 elites stand up very nicely in a chain situation, and the elite alone basically negates their population penalty (10 combined strength against 8-9, many of whom cannot afford to keep their elites at home or whose elites are not very useful for attacking. Once they can keep some defense at home they're able to avoid most of the mass+learn rape that happens to attackers on land defense, and if they picked sage that learn rape is less effective.

    So many people overrate population bonuses anyway... good for starting position but in any war past mintime it starts to mean less and less...

  13. #43
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    i think halfer mystic is the strongest t/m in the game right now. 110 dpa, 5 raw tpa/wpa. not bad at all
    Later on you start about 5/0 off specs. Are you going to run full elite or not? Even if you go full elite, you need to run 20.5 elites/acre + 15% forts to get 110 dpa. Add to that 5 wpa/tpa and you're on 30.5.

    If you want to maintain 5 peasants/acre you'd need a total of 35.5 pop/acre. Assuming Viscount Rank and 10% pop sci you'd still need 35% homes to get there (28.5*1.1*1.1*1.03). And this means that you've already used 50% of your buildings on homes/forts. Think a more realistic number for halfers is 18 elites/acre with 10% forts, which gives you about 90 dpa.

  14. #44
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    @ Bukharistan up forts lower peasents & homes and its about 33.5 pop/acre. the numbers i were quoteing came from one of the halfer mystics in my kd.

  15. #45
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    halfer start with full elite and bank spec credits, get aided soldiers for offspec training. it's not too hard to understand - halfer is a race that needs to be supported in order to work properly. any time someone on these forums or in your kingdom rattles off how halfer is a great solo province, they are doing it wrong.

    30-40% homes is pretty viable and common for t/ms, mostly faeries and halfers. elf not so much.

    edit: if i were playing halfer/mystic i'd probably run with less raw tpa (3ish) and more space for defense. would also make sure i have mounts, and that is probably coming from stables rather than stealing. would also consider drafting higher, since halfer BR and econ sucks just like attackers. 22-24 elites/acre is quite doable.

    halfer/mystic is pretty good if they can manage to get decent honor (Countess+) going, but since Elves dominate them magewise it's difficult to hold on to honor. they just die horribly to being chained like all halflings so it's imperative to be in a situation where a deep chain is never ever profitable.
    Last edited by noobium; 25-04-2014 at 16:50.

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