Avian.... What's the Point?

[CPTK]

Do you guys build rax on your undead tacs? Seems inefficient to stack a building bonus with a race bonus, but then again -15% isn't THAT much and -50% offense losses cries out for super fast attacking. (For that matter, do you build hospitals on undead?)

[topsy's revenge]

Yes to hospitals, no to rax. If i was facing avians and was either not running a split core or the split core could keep up with tact + rax then i might run some rax just so they couldn't get an extra 2(maybe even 1) waves before mintime, but that's not really a concern for most kd's and if you are army in/army out then you'll have the same number of uniques as ud/tact mintime with or without a few rax.

[noobium]

yes, and yes.
they're both optional buildings though, with barracks being very optional and hospitals being optional but generally useful. i prefer barracks outside of war more than barracks inside war... sometimes i'll add an hour to realign attack time for a better wave.

avian speed oow for an active randomer is so useful, too...

[noobium]

i would say split armies are even worse in ghetos than in top kd's, since your chains will already be pretty inefecient in ghetto land.

and again, while i wouldn't suggest sage on anything, if you got it then it would be purely for amnesia.

The problem is that most ghettos just log their attackers whenever and take 2+ hours to wave, if they even manage that... therefore it's very likely that extra hours will need to be added at some point to line up armies before it gets out of hand. This of course calls into doubt whether faster hitting is any use.

I played avian in a split ghetto. It's not easy but both wars before the kingdom went tits up I was the first chain victim - exactly what i was hoping for. Of course it begs the question, why does the Avian have more offense than an Undead... hint hint guise...

[StratOcastle]

Wave times while convenient for RL are not the end all of strategy. I totally agree with noobium that avian is a compliment to core. - Don't ask me. My Virtual Kingdom has no core.
But I noted someone pointing to sage. Well, I addressed this to. Amnesia is supposedly not good enough a reason with the baggage of great science to drag along. It's this thinking that makes the tops untouchable with humans beboppin' and scattin' all over the place.
While I can appreciate the lack of faith in a zero core kingdom with attack times seemingly scattered all over the place I'll point to some things in the Virtual Kingdom. The kingdom is to be comprised of 3 separate divisions of 8 provinces. Each division is home to a time zone: Western, Asian, European. - each of these time zones were available via merger in Recruiting. I looked to see if this was a realistic goal. It is.
So now your supervising 25 but the surgical work is done in segments of 8. Not 20 gabby robots spewing mod and nw, while the elf is eating his own ms. If the better kingdoms say they have activity and skilled veterans why the simple plans? You see, I played D&D and I get that the simple plan is the default. But in this game we're talking about AMA/BB/CR. I think you can pull out the stops for innovation if you're facing the best.
It's not just about pushing the envelope of activity, it's about attacking every weakness you can pry open. The problem with these big vanilla cores is that they are finished before war starts in the important cases( BB vs Pew2 ).They work in a world of conformity based in economic efficiency, not quality. Quality is the difference maker. This is why avian being the fastest is important. ~You must have the element before you need the solution.~ This is why I have at least one of each archetypical build in the Virtual Kingdom. You ever hear the term ' Bring Enough Gun '? This isn't just about ballistic coefficiency, this is an attitude.

[noobium]

The point is that the sage's science bonus by itself isn't as good as the intrinsic bonuses of other personalities. It does make extreme sci a little more affordable though.

For war kingdoms, sage should basically be considered a wpa/tpa bonus, since that is where the extra sci from sage is almost entirely going to be directed by mid-age... war kingdoms have a lot less use for econ sciences, and Sages will get good econ science far earlier than non-Sages.

[tetley]

stratocastle, why do you have a chip on your shoulder/such disdain for attackers reporting their offense prior to an attack and being directed? I've seen this in many other posts of yours as well. It's not hard to see that utopian plans are carried out better when there is a plan. There's two general problems, the first is that a lot of people are bad at making optimal or useful hits on their own. The second is that even if they make quality hits, there are usually a number of quality options. and therefore without direction, the cumulative effect of people free hitting is not what it would be with targets designated. So even if individually players are skilled, it doesn't mean they are all on the same plan for innovation. And truth is often it can take more than 8 people to accomplish one goal.

I don't like reporting my NW/offense and being given a target either. But my solution wasn't to resist a working system. It was to lead ;)

[StratOcastle]

My disdain is for reliability on a flawed system, and I'm not as emotional about it as you may read.
The super wave system is based on compromise not optimization. The waves themselves are optimized, but it's arrangement is a compromise. What they look like to me are the musket volley of colonial battles. Beyond the aesthetics the waves can be derailed fairly easily. The reason they work is everybody agrees on certain efficiencies that don't account for qualities of those that fall below the efficiency bar. I've reported here before that nightmare can be stopped by mystic aura, preemptive strikes can create nw gaps.

I think you misinterpret my comments on individual decisions to mean a lack of design. I actually believe in design, but I draw from influences that are integrated. If we look at engagements akin to mechanized force with backing logistics then we are operating in a manner the game offers. We can wave, camp and selectively op/sabotage. If you understand the Read Option in football then this might offer perspective on individual 'in' kingdom decision making. I always urge people to study Battle of Kursk because there are valuable lessons both from success and failure. Simple things like mine sweeping have relevance. Air supremacy, mock spearheads, etc. Defensive belts, artillery packs, reinforcements.

Now I have to go because I'm watching Point Break ;-) this is also why I don't lead. Who can respect me now?

[noobium]

wave all at once is almost always superior to hit whenever, but the problem is that ghettos often don't want to put in the effort to do that... thus attack times break up and people start making suboptimal hits.

even if hits were occuring whenever, as a war planner i would want attackers to report their offense and their hits to be directed. planned maxgains is more effective than random maxgains. having hits occur at odd hours does mean that a lot more planning has to go into making hits valuable.

there are cases where it makes sense for hits to be held for an hour or two, in order for overpopulation to take effect and drop the target to a more favorable nw range + lower defense. that level of micromanagement is difficult to arrange in ghettoland, but when the opportunity exists i like to exploit it...

avian's difficulty in landchaining of course is their terrible offense and -10% gains. from the perspective of landchaining, -10% gains is purely horrible, since attack time in landchains is irrelevant. add to that the problem that their offense might return at the wrong time, which complicates chaining further. one workaround is to simply add hours when the avian landchains, so their return time is roughly aligned with where they want to hit. while this would appear to negate the point of picking avian, i don't think it's that big a deal... use the speed when you can use it, and add hours to negate the gains penalty when there is no need for the speed.
unfortunately this does nothing about their horrid attack power, and extending attack time also means opening up for a potentially deeper landchain.

[tetley]

The thing is strato, the game has had great minds like dorje, flogger, dirty`, elit, and a whole treasure trove of retired greats who have been brainstorming for years. Why assume it's some concession/compromise that they run waves the way they do? Maybe it actually is best? I'd suggest your style of flexible optimization works well because it's in the context of a much less coordinated conflict. Waves are harder to derail the better you run them ;)

Edit: that's not to say the limits of the game have been reached. But I think flexibility and dynamics and whatever, to be maximized, would still require cooperation and a team effort and a cohesive plan. If you led and you had everyone employing your tactics and unique style, I think a lot of the time you would still need people to report their offence to you so you knew what they were capable of :)

[khronosschoty]

The thing is strato, the game has had great minds like dorje, flogger, dirty`, elit, and a whole treasure trove of retired greats who have been brainstorming for years. Why assume it's some concession/compromise that they run waves the way they do? Maybe it actually is best? I'd suggest your style of flexible optimization works well because it's in the context of a much less coordinated conflict. Waves are harder to derail the better you run them ;)

Edit: that's not to say the limits of the game have been reached. But I think flexibility and dynamics and whatever, to be maximized, would still require cooperation and a team effort and a cohesive plan. If you led and you had everyone employing your tactics and unique style, I think a lot of the time you would still need people to report their offence to you so you knew what they were capable of :)

My thoughts 100% friend.

[StratOcastle]

The super wave is based on a time constraint. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying it isn't optimal. You can argue it is pragmatically optimal and I would agree based on roster requirements. You see, there is one I'm more curious about than others and that is Dirty'. Most guys work from a mathematical standpoint that is based in efficiencies, but we all know there is more to the game. I've seen Rusty beat the math and I've seen AMA beat the math. I've seen others come close, but AMA is the most consistent.
I've seen waves broken, and I've stalled chains myself. Well managed waves are a two way street. I simply don't see the counters that work because the restrictions of the wave system force unnecessary losses. In other words, if both sides are using super waves then super waves always work. But, if you have splinters who counter waves you will see a drop in wave efficiency. I was one of the elves doing the mv/nm/PF and I saw the thing derailed because the kingdom I was with was engaging an avian that reacted as I would have.
There are some massive egos that blame the core instead of accepting responsibility in the moment to reevaluate their tactics. Plus in these super waves you have busy people who are only on for the wave. This is an exploitable reality. Stemming a wave by stalling chaining can have detrimental effect on wave times. Now we force a build switch in rax or a reschedule of the next wave.
I learned and I began to start ops with a throw away spell to knock down mystic aura. I added explosions to minimize soldier blocking, and lightning strike to reduce repeated use of mystic aura. Those were my decisions not the steward. They would've had me launching nm to mana exhaustion no matter how poor the results. Why? Because they had time restraints, and intel was fed to the bot without an eye on enemy movements. Egos. You don't underestimate your enemy. The enemy also learned our wave time and began small incursions in the HA core previous to wave time.
I'm nobody really, but I know what I saw and understood it. Super waves are as much a culture as a strategy. To conclude, there was really no purpose to my hyperactivity in this type of kingdom so I left. In my travels I saw others who were as active and we find our home elsewhere. It's not a hate, it is a difference in culture.
My choice became freedom. It's not a decision I make forever. I like to revisit higher tier kingdoms to reacquaint myself with certain changes and to gauge their ultimate direction. I'd like to think I've found a home now so my endeavor is only to be a muse for those who may feel there is at least a different way.

[skoyl12]

Avians would be interesting to play if they had 6/3 elite and the -50% defensive loses. That way with the short attack times they could be an opportunity attacker that does asynchronous attacks

[StratOcastle]

Back on topic: avian can time attacks to dodge ambush, so incoming acres are solid and troop loss is minimized. If the preferred personality is tac then you also minimize the losses for intel. This isn't just for the tac, this is to keep your core from losing precious tpa that are also soldiers that can be released to use credits. You can use your speed to knock a max gain enemy oor of what may be a ladder chain target they were working toward. Additionally you can use your speed to draw out campers and create a formidable distraction to detour them from going after your killers.

[noobium]

nothing in this game has any point. it's a depressing contest of fighting over increasingly small scraps of resources.