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Thread: china sea, ukraine, western media blind spot

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    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    china sea, ukraine, western media blind spot

    You know what, the ignorance of the western media on the motives of China is just mind boggling. It's not oil (you stupid ignoramous that calls himself an anchorman). Oil is at best a tertiary objective for China in these disputes. A nice little pecuniary benefit for going to war but nothing more than that. The primary objective and the primary motive is entirely political.

    I wanna bet that none of these socalled experts on the news, even know the slightest thing about the geography of this region, or else they would have noticed that Taiwan lies between the South China Sea and East China sea.

    Those commies may be tricky bastards and deceptive about their true motives, but then again it isn't difficult to deceive the vast majority of western journalists. If at least some of these western journalists had (1) any knowledge of the geography of the region, (2) the Chinese culture, (3) the political history of China and (4) the military situation of China, they would have put one and one together and figured it out long ago.

    Western journalists are so incredibly eurocentric it really is a problem. Stop thinking like this is attrition based chess. Understand that in Asia they use a Go strategy, that is based on territory. Wanna know just how good western attrition based thinking works in Asia, take the Vietnam war as an example. You friggin, blind, ignorant dumbasses. Thank god Obama chose Japan's side on the dispute over the East China Sea. At least there's one advisor in the pentagon that knows what he's talking about.

    To all the western journalists who don't have a clue and who are thinking about giving China some leeway in these disputes, here is what China will do and what is going to happen if ignorant dumbasses like you were in charge.

    Step 1 take a big chunk of the South China Sea in the socalled dispute over oil
    Step 2 take a big chunk of the East China Sea in the socalled dispute over oil
    Step 3 build a really big oil rig in South China Sea with the new radar and long range SA missiles they're developing right now, hey China needs some protection of its interests in the area right
    Step 4 do the same for East China sea
    Step 5 now that China has its SA umbrella in place, launch decapitation strike on Taipei. Take out the entire leadership. Run over the country within a day and by the time countries like the United States and its allies are able to do anything, it will already be too late. Bye Bye Taiwan, whose nationalists have been a thorn into the commie side since 1947.

    And to all the German and French journalists who want to give Russia leeway on Ukriane. Think about Georgia! No not the American state you dumbasses, the country in the caucasus. You ignorant fools.

    It doesn't matter whether it is TV5, ARD, ZDF, Canvas, NOS, BBC, MSNBC, CNN, or FOX (as if you can call that news). No matter where you look at, left or right, french, german, british or american there all equally f-in ignorant. My goodness even reputable newspapers and magazines like the Times, Le Monde and Der Spiegel get this thing wrong.

    All of these guys got the initial casualties reports about the Japanese tsunami wrong and they didn't understand why they made such mistakes. And I willing to bet they still don't understand why. I do see a pattern here. The pattern is that the vast majority of the reporters and news media really are as blind as a bat. The perception of the vast majority of the reporters is very very small and very very narrow.

    [end rant]
    Last edited by freemehul; 18-05-2014 at 21:05.
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    considering the point of mass media is to lie and create truth by consensus, it's not that surprising.

    tbh i didn't think about the china sea until just now. i have to use an internal de-bull****ter every time any political topic arises.

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    So, what is happening with China and that area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    considering the point of mass media is to lie and create truth by consensus, it's not that surprising.
    Good thing we have internet forums to find out the truth...

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    internet forums = another form of mass media and one that is pretty useful for propaganda purposes. where do you think all of those troll posts in the comments section of most major news sites come from? the return-on-investment for paying someone (or thousands of someones) peanuts to troll the internets is too good to not do something like that.

    to be fair i think many journalists aren't so stupid. it takes intelligence to know how much of the truth to write, and how to spin reality in the correct manner, and it takes some intelligence to get the raw information to report a story rather than just make up total bull****.

    i think the narrative presented in the news is also subject to America's political attitude towards China and Taiwan ("what is this 'Taiwan' you speak of?") "oil" has become the general shorthand for foreign events that the plebs aren't really involved with, but obviously has to be important... Iraq was about "oil" according to news outlets (the whole "freedom and democracy" thing was pretty obvious bs), but the actual reasons America got involved (and many people in Europe did not) go beyond that.

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    People have a desperate need to have an opinion about everything but at the same time they are too lazy and dumb to actually understand what's going on. So media step in to fill that gap.

    Utterly objective truth is a nice ideal but the human mind isn't equipped to contain it. It's more like a very elaborate club, evolved to fulfill self-interest.

    What you can do is to look at multiple sources having separate/opposing agendas and only take those things they all say in common. The problem is that leaves you with very little information and the need to draw the lines and conclusions on your own. Which again means that your mind will let you see what it *wants* you to see.. but I guess that is still better than only seeing what some shady news corporation wants you to see.

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    Don't you think you should use occam's razor a bit here?
    Imo the chinese, like most other developing countries, have realized that avoiding military conflict and going with diplomacy or economic power is the way to go.
    The lack of missile silos near taiwan is not what is stopping them from taking it.

    Why wouldn't oil be the primary goal? It's not like oil is some irrelevant factor in the global economy and in a developing country's future...
    This is the problem with most "conspiracy theories" and their ilk... they don't often make total sense. I fail to see how taking sovereignty of an island that is 0.4% the size of the mainland trumps asserting control over significant oil deposits in their vicinity.


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    any move to claim territory and throw weight around has multiple consequences. that much isn't a conspiracy theory, and the people who decide these policies should be thinking about that. those people know what the news media is and what it's for.

    basically, whatever is in the news, should be taken as something designed to present a narrow angle, that angle usually sponsored by the entites being talked about. stuff that doesn't fit an angle doesn't make the news. stuff that no one with power has a vested interest in doesn't make the news, unless someone is digging for a fluff human interest story to tug at the heartstrings of the viewers (which is a angle being pursued by the news agency, and to a larger extent an angle that is necessary to keep the common people engaged in what's being put out). people who are paid to write something and spend years training and honing propaganda techniques, should be expected to do exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanBadass
    So, what is happening with China and that area?
    As far as I can tell, China is claiming most of the China Sea based on a really spurious claim, which it has been doing for the last several decades. Today they're making a troll thread about Vietnam, and accusing the USA of trying some Fairplay horse**** with the other ASEAN countries. Now comes the usual run-around when two top kds I mean 21st century nation-states notice each other, in which a lot of posts are written and both kingdoms do some petty theft fort-to-fort, but there is too much at risk. Meanwhile the kingdom "Russia" is threatening to gb Ukraine after some noobs took monarchy, which makes the EU alliance unhappy. People are calling the kingdom of Eagleland a bunch of pussies, and player Gl3nnb4ck is threatening to ragequit over this and everything else Eagleland monarch Barackalypse is doing.

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    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyB View Post
    People have a desperate need to have an opinion about everything but at the same time they are too lazy and dumb to actually understand what's going on. So media step in to fill that gap.

    Utterly objective truth is a nice ideal but the human mind isn't equipped to contain it. It's more like a very elaborate club, evolved to fulfill self-interest.

    What you can do is to look at multiple sources having separate/opposing agendas and only take those things they all say in common. The problem is that leaves you with very little information and the need to draw the lines and conclusions on your own. Which again means that your mind will let you see what it *wants* you to see.. but I guess that is still better than only seeing what some shady news corporation wants you to see.
    I really hope for humanity sake that isn't true, or at least not entirely true, because heck that's a very cynical way of looking at things. But if it were true, then its a very good thing we have a thing called trade in the world. With mutual interest there is at least the interest to share the truth.
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    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    As far as I can tell, China is claiming most of the China Sea based on a really spurious claim, which it has been doing for the last several decades.
    I do understand where the historical claim in the East China Sea comes from. As late as the 16th century, the Ryukyu kingdom paid tribute to two emperors, namely the emperor of China and the emperor of Japan. When the Shimazu clan (a Japanese clan) invaded the Ryukyu islands in 1609 this practice of paying tribute to two empires ended. The Shimazu clan leader was just one of the many daimyo (a.k.a. great names) in the Sengoku civil war (1467 - 1615). The Shimazu themselves were defeated by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the second of the 3 unifiers of Sengoku Japan. The last of the 3 unifiers Tokugawa Ieyasu incorporated the Shimazu domain into the Tokugawa Bakufu or in other words the Japanese Shogunate. This Tokugawa Shogunate lasted roughly 250 years, untill it collapsed in the Boshin civil war (1868 - 1869). This Boshin civil war ultimately lead to the emergence of modern Japan and also lead to the official incorporation of the Ryukyu islands into the modern Japanese nationstate.

    So yeah quite a weak claim of China. The Chinese emperor is long gone, the Ryukyu kingdom is long gone and the population of these islands is assimilated into the Japanese culture for centuries. It is because China wants to have the East China Sea and because these Ryukyu islands just happen to be in the East China Sea, that China digs up this old claim.

    One should also not forget that there's one particular island on the Ryukyu island chain that's important of note. That island being Okinawa. Home to about 32 United States military bases and I dare not forget thousands of American graves. Does American Badass wish to know what kind of personnel lies in these graves and of which war? Or can American Badass make an educated guess about that?
    Last edited by freemehul; 26-08-2014 at 21:58.
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    This may be a side issue but it's one that I'd like to point out. Western media is a for-profit business. If an international development does not bring profit then there is limited financial incentive. Sure we can make an argument for moral, professional or intellectual motivations to print and publish articles, but the bottom-line is still the same.

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    Sorry to double post clicked by accident. As I was saying prior, if an development does not bring money editors lack real motivation to print. The issues with China and the South China Sea dispute is that it is lengthy and complicated, which make the entire issue lack salience. Unless it is a major development (like bordering war) most people will see the headline, and ignore it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    Those commies may be tricky bastards and deceptive about their true motives, but then again it isn't difficult to deceive the vast majority of western journalists. If at least some of these western journalists had (1) any knowledge of the geography of the region, (2) the Chinese culture, (3) the political history of China and (4) the military situation of China, they would have put one and one together and figured it out long ago.
    You can honestly skip 1. 2. & 3. Everything can easily be summarized that China wants to be an international superpower, and feels that they're being encircled and limited by US allies(the one real superpower), and they're not entirely wrong about that either. So they're doing whatever they can to bolster their claims, however thin.
    Of course the historical backgrounds give deeper nuances but they're not entirely necessary to understand the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    Western journalists are so incredibly eurocentric it really is a problem. Stop thinking like this is attrition based chess. Understand that in Asia they use a Go strategy, that is based on territory.
    Interesting analogy, though a bit flat because it suggests all forces are equal(1 stone), and because territory today is more artificial than it has been historically. Better to go read Sun Tzu, it's at the heart of Chinese(and asian in general) military doctrine/thinking for milennia and it's still very much relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    Step 5...
    Unlikely, once the prelude for all that starts the US will(hopefully) do what it did in South Korea post Korean war(and is currently doing in the Baltic states), namely post a suitably large "military contingent"(literally 'meat shield') that if it was annihilated would enrage the US general public. Then the US would have the internal public support it needed to have to retaliate(think Pearl Harbour), and thereby quite likely starting WWIII. And because there'd be public outrage and demand for a response the US govt would be locked on track, it couldn't divert from this path even if it wanted to.

    This could be seen as an application of Sun Tzu btw, "supreme excellence lies in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting", which btw is exactly what China is trying to do at the moment, make any conflict so costly that the US would not want to initiate it.
    or perhaps more fittingly, at least for the US counter move: "There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must not be attacked, towns which must not be besieged, positions which must not be contested, commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed."
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    Forum Fanatic Elldallan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    I do understand where the historical claim in the East China Sea comes from. As late as the 16th century, the Ryukyu kingdom paid tribute to two emperors, namely the emperor of China and the emperor of Japan. When the Shimazu clan (a Japanese clan) invaded the Ryukyu islands in 1609 this practice of paying tribute to two empires ended. The Shimazu clan leader was just one of the many daimyo (a.k.a. great names) in the Sengoku civil war (1467 - 1615). The Shimazu themselves were defeated by Toyotomi Hideyoshi, the second of the 3 unifiers of Sengoku Japan. The last of the 3 unifiers Tokugawa Ieyasu incorporated the Shimazu domain into the Tokugawa Bakufu or in other words the Japanese Shogunate. This Tokugawa Shogunate lasted roughly 250 years, untill it collapsed in the Boshin civil war (1868 - 1869). This Boshin civil war ultimately lead to the emergence of modern Japan and also lead to the official incorporation of the Ryukyu islands into the modern Japanese nationstate.
    Aww you didn't mention the third.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    So yeah quite a weak claim of China. The Chinese emperor is long gone, the Ryukyu kingdom is long gone and the population of these islands is assimilated into the Japanese culture for centuries. It is because China wants to have the East China Sea and because these Ryukyu islands just happen to be in the East China Sea, that China digs up this old claim.

    One should also not forget that there's one particular island on the Ryukyu island chain that's important of note. That island being Okinawa. Home to about 32 United States military bases and I dare not forget thousands of American graves. Does American Badass wish to know what kind of personnel lies in these graves and of which war? Or can American Badass make an educated guess about that?
    Isn't the conflict mostly over the Senkaku Islands? at least I'm not aware that China is seriously contesting the Ryukyu islands, so you present an interesting historical lesson, though I'm not sure how relevant it is. And as they accepted US sovereignty of the Ryukyu islands after the WWII peace treaty it would be absurd to claim the US didn't have the right to give it away, hence they legitimately belong to Japan, the Senkaku islands is an entirely different story though, which is all because of the idiocy of the Allied victors after WWII in not clearly delineating exactly which islands should be considered Japanese since they went about editing borders that existed pre WWII, hell even pre WWI.
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    You may have dismissed the oil well to quickly. The see is open and flowing. navies and armies float around and people do stuff there. But no one resides in a place in the ocean. The oil well and its platform is attached to the bedrock. The platform has a crew inhabiting rooms on a permanent 24/7 basis. They extract resources and sell them to ships.

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