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Thread: Race Changes

  1. #1
    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    Race Changes

    I'm mainly suggesting these changes as ideas for potential changes. The numbers are probably going to be unbalanced, even though I tried to make them balanced. I know I'm not a mathematical genius, nor have I played Utopia long enough to know if I am suggesting something too overpowered/underpowered. Therefore, please read these keeping in mind that you could increase/lower the numbers to better balance them. These race change suggestions go with my personality suggestions

    http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...nality-Changes

    Race: Avian (Neutral)
    Advantage 1: -25% Attack Time
    Advantage 2: +50% TPA for Espionage (Offensive and Defensive)
    Advantage 3: Cannot be Ambushed
    Immunity: Pitfalls
    Racial Spell: Clear Sight
    Disadvantage 1: +25% Training Time
    Disadvantage 2: No Access to Stables
    Elite: 6/2, 550gc, 5NW

    Race: Dwarf (Good)
    Advantage 1: +25% BE
    Advantage 2: Free Building Construction/Razing
    Advantage 3: Building Credits are converted into gold valued at building cost per credit
    Immunity: Fool's Gold
    *Edited*Racial Spells: Mystic Aura
    *Edited*Disadvantage 1: +85% Food Consumption (SO FAT!!!)
    Disadvantage 2: Cannot use Accelerated Construction
    Elite: 5/5, 950gc, 6NW

    Race: Elf (Neutral)
    Advantage 1: +25% WPA
    Advantage 2: -50% Defensive casualties
    Advantage 3: +1 Defensive specialist strength (0/5)
    Immunity: Greed
    Racial Spells: Mage's Fury
    Disadvantage 1: -15% Sabotage Damage
    Disadvantage 2: -15% Offensive TPA
    Elite: 5/4, 800gc, 5.75gc

    Race: Faery (Good)
    Advantage 1: +40% Instant Spell damage
    Advantage 2: +40% Sabotage damage
    Advantage 3: +1 Mana Recovery per Tick (Always)
    *Edited*Immunity: Lightning Strike
    Racial Spells: Access to all racial spells
    Disadvantage 1: +50% Construction/Raze costs
    *Edited*Disadvantage 2: -15% Enemy Military Casualties
    Elite: 3/5, 550gc, 5NW

    Race: Halfling (Neutral)
    *Edited* Advantage 1: +5% Population
    Advantage 2: +30% Thievery Effectiveness
    Advantage 3: +1 Stealth Recovery per Tick (Always)
    Immunity: Vermin
    Racial Spells: Invisibility
    Disadvantage 1: -35% Birth Rate
    Disadvantage 2: +15% Offensive Military Losses
    Elite: 5/3, 500gc, 4.5NW

    Race: Human (Good)
    *Edited*Advantage 1: +15% Income
    Advantage 2: +20% Science Effectiveness
    Advantage 3: -30% Science Costs
    Immunity: Amnesia
    Racial Spells: Fountain of Knowledge
    Disadvantage 1: -1 Mana Recovery per Tick (Always)
    *Edited*Disadvantage 2: -15% WPA
    Elite: 6/4, 1000gc, 6NW

    Race: Orc (Evil)
    Advantage 1: +20% Attack Gains
    *Edited* Advantage 2: Free Draft
    Advantage 3: +20% Enemy casualties on attack
    Immunity: Chastity (They're Orcs...women kind don't have a choice - don't hate me)
    Racial Spells: Bloodlust
    Disadvantage 1: -15% Science Effectiveness
    Disadvantage 2: +30% Science Costs
    *Edited* Elite: 7/2, 800gc, 6NW

    Race: Undead (Evil)
    Advantage 1: Spreads/Immune to Plague**
    Advantage 2: No Food Required
    Advantage 3: -50% Offensive Military Losses
    Immunity: Nightmares
    Racial Spells: Nightmares
    Disadvantage 1: -1 Stealth Recovery per Tick
    Disadvantage 2: No Access to Dungeons (They don't hold prisoners...their zombies eat them)
    *Edited*Elite: 7/1, 650gc, 5.5NW
    *Edited**Plague Change (-2% peasants per tick, -35% Food Production, -15% Income, -5% Military Efficiency)

    EDIT (The following are the 4 extra races I created but updated...)
    Race: Zephyr (Neutral)
    Advantage 1: Elites use Offensive Strength against Enemy Ambush
    Advantage 2: +50% Duration of Self-Spells (Spells that affect "next" affect next 2 instead)
    *Edited*Advantage 3: Wizards add to Enemy Offensive Losses in Combat (1 raw WPA would increase losses by 5%)
    Immunity: Tornados
    Racial Spells: All Self-Spells (Racial and Personality)[Doesn't count towards Faery's Spells known]
    *Edited*Disadvantage 1: +25% Science Costs
    Disadvantage 2: Access to Basic Thievery (Intel Operations Only)
    Elite: 6/1, 450gc, 5NW

    Race: Trogs (Evil)
    Advantage 1: -50% Elite Losses in Combat (Offensive and Defensive)
    *Edited*Advantage 2: +7% Military Efficiency
    Advantage 3: Specialists Kill +20% more troops
    Immunity: Explosions
    Racial Spells: Petrify**
    Disadvantage 1: +15% Attack Time
    Disadvantage 2: -10% BE
    *Edited*Elite: 6/3, 750gc, 5.5NW
    **Petrify: Self-Spell, increases enemy military casualties by 25% (When attacking and being attacked)

    Race: Atlanteans (Good)
    Advantage 1: Double Bonuses from Honor
    Advantage 2: -15% Resources Lost when Attacked
    Advantage 3: +1 Offensive Specialist Strength (5/0)
    *Edited*Immunity: Fireball
    Racial Spells: Reflect Magic
    *Edited*Disadvantage 1: +50% Exploration Costs (Including +50% Rune Cost for Paradise)
    Disadvantage 2: +50% Draft Costs
    Elite: 4/5, 650gc, 5.75NW

    Race: Formorean (Evil)
    Advantage 1: +50% Birthrate
    *Edited*Advantage 2: +2/+1 Soldiers (3/2)
    *Edited*Advantage 3: Soldiers and Elites fill Jobs (Soldiers 4/1, Elites 5/1)
    *Edited*Immunity: Meteor Showers
    Racial Spells: Aggression
    Disadvantage 1: +15% Resources Lost in Combat
    Disadvantage 2: -1 General
    Elite: 3/4, 350gc, 3.5NW
    Last edited by smercjd; 28-06-2014 at 15:27.

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    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    Some have posted in my personality changes...these are the race changes that go with it. The personality changes make a little more sense with these.
    Last edited by smercjd; 21-06-2014 at 23:39.

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    Post Demon
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    **Plague Change (-3% of Total Population per tick, -35% Food Production, -10% Income, -5% Military Efficiency)
    Do you mean total peasant population? Or total 3% of total population taken out in the form of peasants? So if you have 30K military, 10K peasants, you lose 1200 peasants? If it is the last, it will be very easy to PK someone as an UD.

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    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    I mean whatever storms does x2. So probably total peasant population. Sorry lol. But this would stack with storms. It wouldn't cancel drought either.
    I meant for it to be like a strong storms/drought/riots and the lowered ME. I wrote those before knowing some of those numbers...I'll update it to reflect my actual intent. However, even if a dev picked something like this to change it. I would hope and expect that they would tweak the numbers anyway to make it more sensible/balanced.
    Last edited by smercjd; 24-06-2014 at 02:10.

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    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    I posted the 4 new Races I had created originally. Might be too many changes so I left them out originally - but they could be good food for thought -- and they all kind of go with a personality to some degree. Again, I think the added personalities would be enough changes. But it'd be nice to hear thoughts on the new races, too. I tried to incorporate some interesting ideas but I don't know if they are remotely feasible.

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    May as well start a conversation in this thread too! Haha.

    I think it would be cool to give every race an immunity. Assuming Nature's Blessing is staying the same, it seems lame to give races immunity to either storms or drought though. Having said that, the only other spell Faeries could really be immune to is MS or Lightning Bolt, if you want the racial immunities to truly be unique between each race. Perhaps lightning bolt immunity would work. MS seems too ridiculous to be immune to though lol.

    I think Humans might need different disadvantages. I feel like, in their current state, any human province will not be affected at all. The only thing this affects is humans could no longer be a mage hybrid, which isn't a big deal. I'm not sure what other disadvantages to give them though.

    I donno what to say about the new races. There's too much going on there for me to form a real thought on them right now haha.

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    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anatak1989 View Post
    May as well start a conversation in this thread too! Haha.

    I think it would be cool to give every race an immunity. Assuming Nature's Blessing is staying the same, it seems lame to give races immunity to either storms or drought though. Having said that, the only other spell Faeries could really be immune to is MS or Lightning Bolt, if you want the racial immunities to truly be unique between each race. Perhaps lightning bolt immunity would work. MS seems too ridiculous to be immune to though lol.

    I think Humans might need different disadvantages. I feel like, in their current state, any human province will not be affected at all. The only thing this affects is humans could no longer be a mage hybrid, which isn't a big deal. I'm not sure what other disadvantages to give them though.

    I donno what to say about the new races. There's too much going on there for me to form a real thought on them right now haha.
    I forces Humans to be more Attacker/Econ or Attacker/Thief and away from Attacker/Mage as you said. But humans are already so vulnerable as pure attacker because they only have 4 as their defensive power for specs/elites. I actually think that Humans are relatively weak this age and my goal was to somewhat buff them with these changes. Currently, Elves can do pretty much anything a human can but better...
    Well, in my MYSTICS changes (lol, so many separate posts for changes) I recommended Nature's Blessing be changed to 20% change of curing: Plague, Storms, and Droughts per tick. Rather than immunity to S/D and 20% cure per cast. Also, I originally had Faeries as immune to Lightning Strike, which would be really good for them. So I'll edit it back to that. :)

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    Mediator goodz's Avatar
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    Wizards add to Enemy Offensive Losses in Combat (Same rate as D-Specs)

    Dspecs don't increase enemy losses so I am unsure what this means
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    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodz View Post
    Wizards add to Enemy Offensive Losses in Combat (Same rate as D-Specs)

    Dspecs don't increase enemy losses so I am unsure what this means
    I thought offensive losses were based on how many troops the opponent has defending.
    ex: Attacker hits Defender with 0 troops home and loses little to nothing
    ex2: Attacker hits Defender with a Huge army home and loses his typical losses.

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    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare_ View Post
    Too many Nightmares. I'd get claustrophobic. You're welcome to join the KD I'm in though. :p

    It's not so much that they're weak (barring couple glaring exceptions), but that some of the races/personalities are so strong that they overshadow the others.

    1. Atlanteans are pretty solid without honor, and with honor they pummel all the other races. At Count, you'd have 20% OME increase, 10% pop, 10% income, 30% tpa/wpa. It's possible to run a/t/m solidly once you get honor. If I had to pick a setup I'd do a mix of Atlantean/Rogue and Tactician, Dwarf/Cleric, and Faery/Mystic, or just run all these personalities with Atlantean if I was really confident.

    2. One of the reasons why Saboteur is comparatively weak is because lack of MS/Prop/AW. No reason to play saboteur over mystic or rogue besides an NM/NS strategy to save runes, and the strength of Undead/Tact and elite-heavy races shuts that down fast.

    3. Tactician is overpowered. 20% thief autofail with no way to disable/MV, AND QF/-15% speed. One possibility is to make this autofail another personality entirely and call it sentry or watchman, and give a lesser bonus like double prisoners. Autofail % can be adjusted or you can give the personality CS to give possibility of MVing.

    4. Human seems a bit strong. Without population neg it can run comparable military numbers to undead/orc. Undead bit strong also with immunity, plague and other bonuses.
    5. Formoreans and Zephyrs are very weak. Zephyrs are defensive races and yet have 6/1 elite with -5% pop. Formoreans bad elite and bad negs. Soldier army won't compensate for it, although could be fun.
    6. Merchant/pirate too strong (though would still pick tactician over them), warrior too weak relatively speaking
    7. Necromancer I'm not sure about. Depends on the 10% re-animate. If Town Watch peasants and PF considered, then could pretty much replace your losses, basically 5-100% decreases in losses. Trog/Necromancer could be interesting. Animate spell is weak though, 10 casts = 30% mana = 1% population drafted. Depends on cost I guess.

    Interesting changes though, some concepts I haven't seen suggested before. With these changes you can actually run into rock-paper-scissors type scenarios that go beyond attacker > thief > mage > attacker
    1. Atlantean - yeah, an Atlantean Tactician seems pretty insane now that you mention it. I was hoping that the -15% enemy losses would make them unliked in wars.
    4a. Humans - I felt like they were just too weak this age. Also - I considered making their elites 4/6 -- but that might force them into a Thief only role or growth only...
    4b. Undeads - I tried to nerf them from what they are now. I nerfed plauge considerably, then gave them weaker elites, and removed the conversion. Plus they are still pretty terrible thieves - just in a more sensible way, to me. Also, no dungeons isn't a huge significance, but it can suck to have the lowered offense from them - making Orcs the strongest attacking race.

    5a. Formoreans -- Yeah it seemed like a "fun" race. With aggression they become 3/2 soldiers (offense as strong as their elites) -- with the job filling they could have a much higher draft....immune to fireball. Hmm...I wanted to make a race with some better use of soldiers...I would think that they would be insanely good at taking down dragons
    5b. Zephys - my goal with them was to make them an A/M hybrid. Elites are same offense as avians, but they can't really be ambushed as easily due to fighting ambush with their offense. Their self spells run longer so you wouldn't require many guilds/towers during wars (but would need to pump wiz out of war). Then their wizards add to enemy losses. Having all the racial/personality self-spells they get CS, RM, QF, and other very useful and strong spells that could really help their attacking capabilities out. Also, their elites are very cheap. I think they are deceptively stronger than weak. Whatever that means, haha.

  11. #11
    Mediator goodz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smercjd View Post
    I thought offensive losses were based on how many troops the opponent has defending.
    ex: Attacker hits Defender with 0 troops home and loses little to nothing
    ex2: Attacker hits Defender with a Huge army home and loses his typical losses.
    no they are a percentage of troops sent. So an orc would have less losses then a Halfling on the same attack because he needs almost 2/3 as many troops.

    defensive losses are a percentage of troops defending.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smercjd View Post
    1. Atlantean - yeah, an Atlantean Tactician seems pretty insane now that you mention it. I was hoping that the -15% enemy losses would make them unliked in wars.
    4a. Humans - I felt like they were just too weak this age. Also - I considered making their elites 4/6 -- but that might force them into a Thief only role or growth only...
    4b. Undeads - I tried to nerf them from what they are now. I nerfed plauge considerably, then gave them weaker elites, and removed the conversion. Plus they are still pretty terrible thieves - just in a more sensible way, to me. Also, no dungeons isn't a huge significance, but it can suck to have the lowered offense from them - making Orcs the strongest attacking race.

    5a. Formoreans -- Yeah it seemed like a "fun" race. With aggression they become 3/2 soldiers (offense as strong as their elites) -- with the job filling they could have a much higher draft....immune to fireball. Hmm...I wanted to make a race with some better use of soldiers...I would think that they would be insanely good at taking down dragons
    5b. Zephys - my goal with them was to make them an A/M hybrid. Elites are same offense as avians, but they can't really be ambushed as easily due to fighting ambush with their offense. Their self spells run longer so you wouldn't require many guilds/towers during wars (but would need to pump wiz out of war). Then their wizards add to enemy losses. Having all the racial/personality self-spells they get CS, RM, QF, and other very useful and strong spells that could really help their attacking capabilities out. Also, their elites are very cheap. I think they are deceptively stronger than weak. Whatever that means, haha.
    1. Way to weaken them might be remove auto-GS, MS immune, or double honor, or lower them in some combination.
    4a. 4/6 human would also be very strong, probably even stronger I'd say for the roles I'd want to put them in (tanked attacker who 1-2xs NM targets and gains econ). Not sure how to fix, but at present they have comparable #s with undead/orc while also having good turtle, good income, and great sci.
    4b. Plague isn't nerfed imo. -3% peasants per tick synergizes very very well with chastity/MS/storms. Currently, plague and chastity are equal effect so don't stack. -5% ME seems less of a negative but when you consider that attackers will have to MV multiple times when they are multi-tapping (e.g. 1x, then plague, nb, then 2x, then plague, nb again for the last 1x). -5% offense quite good and when you consider wasted runes/mana plague becomes military and econ killer - not to mention increased food losses.

    5a. Formoreans can be fun, but +15% losses, 3/4 elite, and -1g will bury them quickly. They're bad at the top of the setup, and bad at the bottom of the setup. Orc/Formorean setup is interesting, but not very competitive. I'd remove/lower some of the negs or increase elite to 4/4 or something.

    5b. All self-spells and offensive A/M doesn't mix very well though. +durations help, but with a 6/1 elite that has -5% population, you will be camped and chained at home. Easy to force you into overpop and make you either release all your military or release all your wizards. -5% pop gives them no space efficiency to hybrid.

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    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare_ View Post
    1. Way to weaken them might be remove auto-GS, MS immune, or double honor, or lower them in some combination.
    4a. 4/6 human would also be very strong, probably even stronger I'd say for the roles I'd want to put them in (tanked attacker who 1-2xs NM targets and gains econ). Not sure how to fix, but at present they have comparable #s with undead/orc while also having good turtle, good income, and great sci.
    4b. Plague isn't nerfed imo. -3% peasants per tick synergizes very very well with chastity/MS/storms. Currently, plague and chastity are equal effect so don't stack. -5% ME seems less of a negative but when you consider that attackers will have to MV multiple times when they are multi-tapping (e.g. 1x, then plague, nb, then 2x, then plague, nb again for the last 1x). -5% offense quite good and when you consider wasted runes/mana plague becomes military and econ killer - not to mention increased food losses.

    5a. Formoreans can be fun, but +15% losses, 3/4 elite, and -1g will bury them quickly. They're bad at the top of the setup, and bad at the bottom of the setup. Orc/Formorean setup is interesting, but not very competitive. I'd remove/lower some of the negs or increase elite to 4/4 or something.

    5b. All self-spells and offensive A/M doesn't mix very well though. +durations help, but with a 6/1 elite that has -5% population, you will be camped and chained at home. Easy to force you into overpop and make you either release all your military or release all your wizards. -5% pop gives them no space efficiency to hybrid.
    1. Yeah I'm thinking if I switched MS immunity to FB immunity with Formoreans. Maybe 1.5 bonus from honor and -15% Resource Losses?

    4a. Hmm...maybe nerfing their bonuses like Atlantean would help. +15% Income, +15% Sci Effects, -20% Sci Cost.

    4b. I dunno -15% DME is VERY severe... I guess it just depends on who you're attacking. -5% ME would potentially be worse for attackers whereas -15% is worse for TMs...so I guess I see your point...currently TMs seem so safe and protected all the time that it's hard to even consider focusing them. (At least in my KD/ghettoland?/fun times)

    5a. Like I said, maybe switch the MS immunity from Atlantean to them. and maybe Make soldiers 3/2 (with aggression 4/3). BUt yeah, I think Orc/Formorean would be a really fun KD. And even w/o a whole KD of them, just having a couple Formoreans to send soldiers to could REALLY help dragon slaying. (Keeping in mind that Soldiers don't cost wages, can easily be used to explore, and with the formorean changes also fill jobs). Elites are very cheap and just as good as d-specs but also fill jobs. I think this race could be very interesting.

    5b. I think similar to faeries, they'd just have to be sci pumped and potentially include more homes than the average joe. -5% pop is also like saying must have 5% pop sci to be normal, or must include an additional 20% homes. Which, as you say, IS pretty severe...but I think their bonuses are pretty awesome. But if you think about it, a Zephyr with 4 raw WPA (not too unreasonable) -- would increase enemy losses by 20%. Additionally, they are very hard to ambush. But I think you're right, they would require too many different types of buildings/science/honor to be very effective...I dunno, I can still see the good in them, it would just be an expert level race

  14. #14
    Mediator goodz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smercjd View Post
    1. Yeah I'm thinking if I switched MS immunity to FB immunity with Formoreans. Maybe 1.5 bonus from honor and -15% Resource Losses?

    4a. Hmm...maybe nerfing their bonuses like Atlantean would help. +15% Income, +15% Sci Effects, -20% Sci Cost.

    4b. I dunno -15% DME is VERY severe... I guess it just depends on who you're attacking. -5% ME would potentially be worse for attackers whereas -15% is worse for TMs...so I guess I see your point...currently TMs seem so safe and protected all the time that it's hard to even consider focusing them. (At least in my KD/ghettoland?/fun times)

    5a. Like I said, maybe switch the MS immunity from Atlantean to them. and maybe Make soldiers 3/2 (with aggression 4/3). BUt yeah, I think Orc/Formorean would be a really fun KD. And even w/o a whole KD of them, just having a couple Formoreans to send soldiers to could REALLY help dragon slaying. (Keeping in mind that Soldiers don't cost wages, can easily be used to explore, and with the formorean changes also fill jobs). Elites are very cheap and just as good as d-specs but also fill jobs. I think this race could be very interesting.

    5b. I think similar to faeries, they'd just have to be sci pumped and potentially include more homes than the average joe. -5% pop is also like saying must have 5% pop sci to be normal, or must include an additional 20% homes. Which, as you say, IS pretty severe...but I think their bonuses are pretty awesome. But if you think about it, a Zephyr with 4 raw WPA (not too unreasonable) -- would increase enemy losses by 20%. Additionally, they are very hard to ambush. But I think you're right, they would require too many different types of buildings/science/honor to be very effective...I dunno, I can still see the good in them, it would just be an expert level race
    Removing MS immunity and moving to one of the terrible races would be good for balancing. I still think your human is probably easily the best race just running as an a/t. The Halfling is also quite good. Didn't love any of the hybrid mage races that much. It will be very hard to take down a human cleric, the +20% WPA + large science + magic shield means you probably need to run like 3x their raw wpa to nightmare. (~6-7?) :(

    Halfling cleric and rogue both looked quite good too. I think I would run a mix of 4 Halfling rogues, 11 human clerics, 3 faery mystics, 7 undead tacticians? unsure about my heavy attacker race but meh something around that.
    Last edited by goodz; 27-06-2014 at 17:16.
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    Forum Addict smercjd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodz View Post
    Removing MS immunity and moving to one of the terrible races would be good for balancing. I still think your human is probably easily the best race just running as an a/t. The Halfling is also quite good. Didn't love any of the hybrid mage races that much. It will be very hard to take down a human cleric, the +20% WPA + large science + magic shield means you probably need to run like 3x their raw wpa to nightmare. (~6-7?) :(

    Halfling cleric and rogue both looked quite good too. I think I would run a mix of 4 Halfling rogues, 11 human clerics, 3 faery mystics, 7 undead tacticians? unsure about my heavy attacker race but meh something around that.
    My intent was for humans to be relatively punished in the field of magic. Maybe instead of -15% spell damage, -15% WPA? I want them to still be strong - we're human after all ;) But I view humans as the least magical of races. Not that what I view them as really matters, but even for balancing purposes, I think -15% WPA and the -1 Mana might be better balanced, then. -1mana sucks for tog. -15% wpa gives them both offensive/defensive penalty to mage-ness. Then it might be too easy for an Elf/Cleric to NM Wave...but Humans feel they can conquer all with science, so they can just train a bunch of science. The other idea I was toying with was giving humans no wizards and instead figuring out some way that science would translate to WPA.
    +25% Sci would be like 1 wpa or something. +100% would then be like 4wpa. That might be TOO steep, still, but something along those lines?

    Anyway I edited the races/personalities based on what you guys have been saying is too strong/weak. I put *Edited* in front of what I changed. What do you think?

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