Sage vs Merchant

[noobium]

This is a team game is it not? Killing enemy troops quickly sounds good to me. Obviously, orc tactician can do that arguably better... But orc tactician doesn't have the sustainability of an avian cleric or even merchant. But, now we're going off topic haha.

orcs have way better kill efficiency in attrition battles (8pt offense vs. 6pt), regardless of personality.

it takes about 5 days of hostile before cleric's sustainability really starts to be a major factor, if people entered war with a proper draft rate and offense:defense ratio. usually by then native economy has taken over, or the war has already been decided for all practical purposes.

what cleric is really good for are races that use their elites to defend situationally - dwarf and human primarily. both races also would want to build a lot of things besides hospitals, while avians really don't have a lot of things they would want to build. avians don't need barracks, don't need guardstations in a lot of situations unless they are stupid about letting themselves suffer hits, are locked out of building stables.

if you're doing avian right you're probably using extended time to land attacks with the rest of the kingdom, and using the speed bonus when it makes sense to do so. fast attacking by itself is worthless, but fast attacking is the best bonus in a lot situations. again, simple question of tactical fail. i would think an avian player would have thought this through instead of thinking "omg imma hit fast for moar honor". Fast attacking to massacre and hit between waves is the best, and in order to do that having the best inherent attack time mod possible is helpful. -25% by itself isn't enough, other tacticians come close to that attack time.

cleric seems like a nice idea on paper and many ages ago it was the best way to go, back when cleric had OP reviving soldiers. like a lot of things, people scoffed at Cleric until BB showed how utterly broken Cleric was, and now that's the new trend the kids are into. i played Cleric before it was cool and remembered being mocked, just as always.

[Bishop]

No I'm very much correct, based on experience. Cleric on Avian is the most superfluous personality, because Avian troops are not very good to begin with. All you have is a ****ty army and a speed bonus that is not good enough to do anything with, which gets destroyed by actually good attackers and actually good t/ms. Cleric might be the best Avian in ages where Cleric is good, but Avian doesn't need Cleric any more than any other race, and just about every other race is better at being Cleric than Avian. I wound up building homes/rax due to nothing better to build and wishing I had just gone Merch instead.

I don't know why people don't realize that if you hit faster, you are killing enemy troops just as fast as you are losing your own. If you are not making a useful hit with every attack, then that's a tactical fail. Ideally a war isn't decided by offensive attrition on attacks alone.

Cleric is probably the best match with avian, merchant i would pick second. You dont pick cleric just to protect strong troops, you pick it to maximise army longevity, something avian especially requires.

[Nightmare_]

orcs have way better kill efficiency in attrition battles (8pt offense vs. 6pt), regardless of personality.

it takes about 5 days of hostile before cleric's sustainability really starts to be a major factor, if people entered war with a proper draft rate and offense:defense ratio. usually by then native economy has taken over, or the war has already been decided for all practical purposes.

what cleric is really good for are races that use their elites to defend situationally - dwarf and human primarily. both races also would want to build a lot of things besides hospitals, while avians really don't have a lot of things they would want to build. avians don't need barracks, don't need guardstations in a lot of situations unless they are stupid about letting themselves suffer hits, are locked out of building stables.

if you're doing avian right you're probably using extended time to land attacks with the rest of the kingdom, and using the speed bonus when it makes sense to do so. fast attacking by itself is worthless, but fast attacking is the best bonus in a lot situations. again, simple question of tactical fail. i would think an avian player would have thought this through instead of thinking "omg imma hit fast for moar honor". Fast attacking to massacre and hit between waves is the best, and in order to do that having the best inherent attack time mod possible is helpful. -25% by itself isn't enough, other tacticians come close to that attack time.

cleric seems like a nice idea on paper and many ages ago it was the best way to go, back when cleric had OP reviving soldiers. like a lot of things, people scoffed at Cleric until BB showed how utterly broken Cleric was, and now that's the new trend the kids are into. i played Cleric before it was cool and remembered being mocked, just as always.

Personally I agree with a lot of this. Avian is built for speed. If you're gonna run it, plan a small niche for it, and play em like a supernova. Tactician with 20% rax - kamikaze central. Alternate trad and massacre/raze with high TG/rax and moderate hospitals. Catch their hybrids by surprise. You only beat other races in one thing, so may as well maximize it. Make preparations to be an absolute farm after several days of war, that's just how it goes. By then you'll have fulfilled your role.

Otherwise avian/cleric is pretty much equivalent to avian/tact (static #s). Prefer cleric since the -losses never go away with incoming or raze, but it's basically 25% rax or 25% hosp, and then their unique spells.

Why so victim mentality though? It's turning into a theme. No one's attacking you, just the arguments you're putting forth.

[goodz]

Avian troops dying out isn't an issue any more then with any other kingdom (unless you suck at making the in/out with their attack speed in which case increased MS on your elites at home sucks)

The issue is they just don't hit as hard as orcs and undead have in the past, the additional speed is negated by the weaker elites as they are less able to multi tap. Then they run into issue where your doing about the same amount of damage due to speed bonus but others have -50% offensive casualties, +gains, elite credits.

If the avian elite was the same strength as orc/undead you could turn it back into a proper glass cannon race, I would consider using it if it had a 7/2 elite -25% attack time and +10% losses :p Avian is kind of fun but its weak base military makes it worst then undead/orc.

[Anatak1989]

I know we're now a bit off topic, and on borderline Suggestions thread territory haha. But what if the avian had the +10% OME in war instead of humans? That could have been better and more balanced.

[smercjd]

Though I agree with what seems like the majority that avian are the 'weakest' of the attackers. But no game is ever going to be perfectly balanced. You just have to enjoy what you're doing.
the -25% attack time combos more with the -2 through +4 hours you can use for gains. It gives them the most attack time versatility of all the races (Dwarf/Tactician begin close to the same). Heck - you could even be super crazy and run something like Avian/Tactician WITH 25% barracks!

Yeah, I'm a noob...but I play for the fun. Versatility can be fun!

[Nightmare_]

Avian troops dying out isn't an issue any more then with any other kingdom (unless you suck at making the in/out with their attack speed in which case increased MS on your elites at home sucks)

The issue is they just don't hit as hard as orcs and undead have in the past, the additional speed is negated by the weaker elites as they are less able to multi tap. Then they run into issue where your doing about the same amount of damage due to speed bonus but others have -50% offensive casualties, +gains, elite credits.

If the avian elite was the same strength as orc/undead you could turn it back into a proper glass cannon race, I would consider using it if it had a 7/2 elite -25% attack time and +10% losses :p Avian is kind of fun but its weak base military makes it worst then undead/orc.

In a min-time war an avian/tact with 20% rax (6.4h base attack time) will make ~8 attacks, while any other tact with no rax will make ~5. 1.6x losses. That doesn't include the times you tank MS home and get caught in-between ticks (probably more often than other attackers). That's also just min time.

I think an avian/tact core in the right hands would be terribly deadly to most setups except for heavy dwarf or heavy t/m ones. Getting wars are another story though, because any KD willing to go avian/tact core is probably hyperactive and would crush the other KD anyway. A 7/x elite would be too strong; I think something that slightly benefits its wartime econ would be more balanced.

[noobium]

Would prefer pairing avian/tact with a really solid attacker with defensive capabilities, like Human or Dwarf. Avians are pretty useful in anti-attacker roles, either by massing attackers to allow the core to op, or by landing a strike before an attacker can land their second unique and pushing that hitter oor of the bigs you're trying to protect. An avian core can chain deeper but it lacks power or defense; Avian in a minority role is a lot better, but they have to do a lot of province management and find the best way to integrate with whatever they are paired with.

Avian/Tact paired with Faeries is pretty out there but a nice setup to play with, can **** up high offense attackers nicely but it's tough to play that against a setup with a lot of pure defensive provinces.