Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Philosophy of "Balance"

  1. #1
    Enthusiast Zantetsuken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    336

    Philosophy of "Balance"

    I was thinking about the game, and the philosophy of balance the game uses. It provides a race with certain bonuses, but "balances" it out by also adding weaknesses. I particularly like the approach of other games, like Starcraft 2 and Dota 2. "But Utopia isn't either of these games". This thread is just food for thought. In SC2 and Dota, races and heroes aren't given weaknesses to counteract their strengths. They are just given strengths. Essentially, everything is overpowered, so the game is balanced. Imagine Dwarfs that didn't eat more and could use accelerated construction. Imagine Orcs getting the full benefit from science, or Avians....being removed from the game. Or Undead being able to train elites again AND being able to use thievery. Just give races a certain toolkit, and make it overpowered.

    Make Avians the "fast attackers". Give them their -35% attack times, and build the rest of their toolkit to support that. They will need a way to grow into land that is coming in quickly. Give them increased birth rates. They will be losing a lot of military quicker than other races, reduce their military losses, or training costs. And no drawbacks.

    Make Dwarfs the master of builds. Give them their bonus BE, and build the rest to support that. Let them accelerate free buildings, or maybe even REDUCE their base build time.

    Orcs are in a good spot for their niche, but remove the sci penalty.

    I personally like the "everything is overpowered, so it's balanced" approach. I realize it's never been this game's approach to balance and likely never will be, but a guy can dream :)

  2. #2
    Forum Fanatic Darkz Azn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NYC | Sanctuary
    Posts
    2,266
    the game is made for the 1% ... =)


    Odd of Absalom

    Beastblood is #oddplay


    ˙ppo ǝɹɐ noʎ
    #odd
    Odd is a three-edged sword.
    ( ͡? ͜ʖ ͡?)

  3. #3
    Post Fiend
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    298
    I understand your thought process, but it's a bit different in those games. I've never played DotA, but I've played a ton of LoL, and even though heroes only have strengths, they have specific counters. In a game like this, it's tough to balance by making everything overpowered, because then there aren't specific counters...or something. I don't know haha. I just think it's tougher to put that into a game like this.

    Making everything overpowered could be more friendly to new players though. People like to feel powerful, and they hate to regret their choice later.

  4. #4
    Enthusiast Zantetsuken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Anatak1989 View Post
    I understand your thought process, but it's a bit different in those games. I've never played DotA, but I've played a ton of LoL, and even though heroes only have strengths, they have specific counters. In a game like this, it's tough to balance by making everything overpowered, because then there aren't specific counters...or something. I don't know haha. I just think it's tougher to put that into a game like this.

    Making everything overpowered could be more friendly to new players though. People like to feel powerful, and they hate to regret their choice later.
    But if you think about it, those "counters" are often just using the strengths of your hero/champion/race/whatever to a better capacity than your opponent. I could play a game of Dota (or LoL), and go up against a hero/champion that counters mine in theory, but if I simply outplay them by using my hero/champion/race's strengths better than they use theirs, then I win. Now, I would argue that this game does a lot to address this with buildings and science. You can cover your race's weaknesses or build upon its strengths depending on what sciences/buildings/personalities you use, but why not extend that element to the race itself? Just make a decision on what you want a specific race to be good at, and go all in, make it the master of that niche.

  5. #5
    Enthusiast Zantetsuken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkz Azn View Post
    the game is made for the 1% ... =)
    It didn't start out that way :)

  6. #6
    Post Fiend
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    298
    Yeah I suppose that's true. Outplaying counters is always fun when you succeed haha. So basically, I think the niches could be something like:

    Avian - Speed attacker. They need to be able to attack faster than anyone else, but in giving them this strength, need to make them able to not worry about being land fat too quickly.
    Dwarf - Master of buildings (similar to what they are now). OP already covered this.
    Human - Master of science.
    Elf - Best wizards
    Halfling - Best thieves
    Faery - Best turtling? Best all round T/M? One interesting idea would be, make Faery the best mage race, and make Elves the best potential hybrid. The reason I say this is, elves are typically pretty agile creatures in other fantasy games. Why not give them the ability to be any mix of anything instead of faery?
    Orc - Brute force, scary foes that inflict huge casualties (OP covered this).
    Undead - Insane sustainability, as well as the plague.

    I know I basically said everything that the races are already. But I just like to post it anyways haha. It's something to think about.

    Also, should this maybe go in suggestions thread? Or maybe it could stay here if we're just discussing stuff, I donno haha.
    Last edited by Anatak1989; 09-07-2014 at 17:46.

  7. #7
    Forum Fanatic Darkz Azn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NYC | Sanctuary
    Posts
    2,266
    as a seasonal starcraft player, the amount of nerf terran and zerg gotten in the early game is cause of the lack of presence protoss has at the championship/gsl .... many seasons later now that everyone 2 players are protoss ... and all/most of the recent "balance" and changes are for terran and zerg, since protoss r op ...
    //
    but yes ... you cant really compare starcraft to utopia ... the only balance needed are for the top kingdoms =)

    if the top kingdoms have an serious strong setup and gimmick, the game need to balance from the top not the bottom ... You shouldn't be playing and looking at an individual race, but rather the synergy between the race for the kingdom. fast attacker for a kingdom that doesn't enough leadership and commitment to wake up in the middle of the night is a big no no, so why do you even care about that ... a slower race like human with a casualty op brand like cleric is a lot more efficient and beneficent for a kingdom =)


    Odd of Absalom

    Beastblood is #oddplay


    ˙ppo ǝɹɐ noʎ
    #odd
    Odd is a three-edged sword.
    ( ͡? ͜ʖ ͡?)

  8. #8
    Mediator goodz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,762
    Quote Originally Posted by Zantetsuken View Post
    I was thinking about the game, and the philosophy of balance the game uses. It provides a race with certain bonuses, but "balances" it out by also adding weaknesses. I particularly like the approach of other games, like Starcraft 2 and Dota 2. "But Utopia isn't either of these games". This thread is just food for thought. In SC2 and Dota, races and heroes aren't given weaknesses to counteract their strengths. They are just given strengths. Essentially, everything is overpowered, so the game is balanced. Imagine Dwarfs that didn't eat more and could use accelerated construction. Imagine Orcs getting the full benefit from science, or Avians....being removed from the game. Or Undead being able to train elites again AND being able to use thievery. Just give races a certain toolkit, and make it overpowered.

    Make Avians the "fast attackers". Give them their -35% attack times, and build the rest of their toolkit to support that. They will need a way to grow into land that is coming in quickly. Give them increased birth rates. They will be losing a lot of military quicker than other races, reduce their military losses, or training costs. And no drawbacks.

    Make Dwarfs the master of builds. Give them their bonus BE, and build the rest to support that. Let them accelerate free buildings, or maybe even REDUCE their base build time.

    Orcs are in a good spot for their niche, but remove the sci penalty.

    I personally like the "everything is overpowered, so it's balanced" approach. I realize it's never been this game's approach to balance and likely never will be, but a guy can dream :)
    they have weaknesses in those games. In SC1 for example zerg generally have low armour and are easily killed by things that spam low damage. Terran buildings burn when hit to red. Terran units don't regain life. Science vessels can't attack. Zerg need to build on creep. Protoss need to build on warp?

    In Dota some heroes are slow. Some do low damage. Etc.

    They have weaknesses in that they have areas where they lack strength (synonym for weakness yea?).
    My life is better then yours.

  9. #9
    I like to post Band of Horses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,990
    Goodz is right.

    I'll add, in those rock/paper/scissor matchups of those games and hero choices even if you face your hard counter on even skill and lose the game is over in under 40 minutes. Here it lasts 13 weeks. What I am getting at is time doesn't allow the apples to oranges comparison that you are making.
    "The Utopian voice of reason" ~Ben (And he's an official moderator)

  10. #10
    Triggered Godly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,953
    This is semantics. He'll argue that the base armor is the lowest hero/race's armor and the rest are "bonuses." Similarly, the dwarf food penalty isn't really a penalty. The other races are just more efficient eaters as an advantage. The more OP all the races are, the easier it is to break the game. This is what they're trying to avoid. The methodology is actually to benefit the 99%, not the 1%, because the 99% have no clue how to figure out how to break the game.
    Last edited by Godly; 09-07-2014 at 18:38.
    "Godly, you do realized that you have just sealed your faith now, right?"

  11. #11
    Moderator for:
    Utopia Forums
    Palem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    22,030
    The Dao is strong in utopia. Let it be.

  12. #12
    Game Support Bishop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    21,332
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkz Azn View Post
    the game is made for the 1% ... =)
    Odd...


    and untrue. We try to balance for all, but its the 1% that we have to be most mindful of with changes as they are the ones that will find weak spots in game design. The game is aimed by far at the majority of players.
    Support email: utopiasupport@utopia-game.com <- please use this and don't just PM me| Account Deleted/Inactive | Utopia Facebook Page | #tactics <-- click to join IRC|
    PM DavidC for test server access

  13. #13
    Post Fiend
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    298
    Yeah those are all good points. I just like to wonder what it would be like hah. Don't just shut down the idea, have fun discussing it =P

  14. #14
    Enthusiast
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    353
    The last ages utopia is pretty balanced. The first ages if you couldn't see which race was overpowered when the chances were announced you'd figure it out the hard way 2-3 weeks into the age and there was nothing you could do. Now game is a lot more forgiving.

    Now if you want to compare it with sc, i'd say that in the past the "optimal" play was to explore, sci-elite pump and be in a better position to farm your opponents. Pretty straight forward but hard and punishing for new ppl. Top 2-3 kds still play kinda that way. A similar play is in sc, you try to crush your opponent. The main difference is that in sc if your opponent does a good rush for example, you gg and move to next game. Here next game is in three months so your choices matter a lot more.

  15. #15
    Needs to get out more
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Oh
    Posts
    8,976
    Agreed, they have been balanced. Sometimes these guys think the rest of us aren't aware of an exploitable feature. This isn't necessarily the truth. I enjoy playing with the challenge of honor and also don't belong to kingdoms that want to exploit the game so much.

    More so, it is ambition that drives players to look for system weakness to exploit, not intellect. I can detect intellect not by the clarity of ones numerical understanding, but by the breadth of their use. Ambition is firmly the true navigator of kingdom success until you reach levels where both are melded.

    I guess I could site a few wars from last age or the last 2 ages that would offer a degree of evidence regarding intellect and ambition.
    Last edited by StratOcastle; 10-07-2014 at 14:55.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
    Correct me then, instead of being a dick about it.
    love that thick mahogany back with no belly carve or anything...pure thick wood ! The thing ROCK is made of !
    ________
    Weed bowls

    http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...+say&FORM=VDRE

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •