AMA Mean Bullies vs. Sad Jerks Age 62 - ROUND TWO??!!

[tetley]

Figure this deserves its own thread.

- Jerks warred AMA, lost, it was a fun good war. At the end, we did a "max gain" wave with +4 hits from 6 or 7 of our big provinces, which was worth about 2400 acres total. The +4 hours added roughly 400 acres.

- Cello seemed very upset about this, claiming that it's poor sportsmanship and bad manners. I apologized for the +4 (if it's truly BM) but I didn't apologize for the max gain wave, because, as far as I understand, it's fairly routine for most kingdoms to phase into max gain hits in the last wave of war. He claimed this wasn't the case. What are people's thoughts on this?

- Personally, I think we timed it well and were able to withdraw one tick before their elves got home. It was the correct strategic play. Cello claimed they would have CFed us but for this final wave.

- Just before withdrawal there were some CF discussions between me and Cello/Elit. Their demands were initially 3k cow/calf acres and 5k core acres for an eoacf, with no restrictions on hits. We negotiated for like an hour and a half but clearly we needed goodz' mediation services because we were unable to reach a deal. My final offer (I think) was 2.5k cow acres with one hit max on our biggest prov, and 3.5k core acres.

- Cello ran the gamut of impressive psychological tactics on me in his efforts to make me give more land. For example: "This will just create more bad blood between our kds," "I'll lose any respect for you I had," "To fight us is a suicide mission don't throw your age away," and finally even a role reversal where he got upset at ME when I wouldn't CF, as if it was wrong for me to force them to take the land the hard way. Honestly I believe Cello is probably a pretty nice guy and these were just methods of land extraction, so I don't hold it against him. And the truth is that I think everyone respects an opponent who fights back more than one who lays down.

- Elit's diplo was a lot different, his was more like, "We didn't get enough acres," including some weird logic involving them having 50mil fools golded by a ghetto a few days before war. (This is why they didn't get enough acres or something. I responded by saying that had nothing to do with our war and was an outside factor and it didn't follow that Jerks should have to give more land just because they failed to take enough in war.)

- I think it's a little lame that AMA forced a second conflict on us right away. We lost 6.5k acres total (from war and hostile) and they were up from the war win bonus (15k?), which I also consider acres they "gained" from us. Especially considering Pew gave them a CF for free earlier this age after their war, I really hoped they would pay it forward. Mean play is bad for the game, nice play is good for the game. (If our positions were reversed, there's no question - I would have just CFed them. But maybe I have a loser's attitude.)

- The free CF requested wasn't EOA, it could have just been a couple weeks or something; generally I would say that winning a war and forcing a b2b conflict is pretty callous. That said, AMA did have a previous grudge with jerks that remained unsettled, and we did fireball Elit in the first week or so of the age, so perhaps they had their reasons.

- With our position in the charts post-war, it was pretty obvious we had no shot of crowning. AMA was in third place with around the same pool as us I assume, so would start suffering pool decay right away. We didn't have much reason to give acres for a CF, and it seems to me that my player base much prefers to fight over acres in general than to give them up, so I decided we'd take our chances with a hostile. I think it's still the case that this isn't worth it for them overall, but having come on so strong with the diplo and threats, I suppose they needed to follow through or they'd lose face.

- I try not to take all this too personally, because it's just a game. Some of our players are a little more hot-headed than me, but I guess the drama element is what makes it fun for some people.

- Anyways, we've exchanged a fair number of hits. Here's a mini summary. It's so one-sided because the meter is 28-69.

** The kingdom of 2:26 **
Total land exchanged: -3,346

- Due to my players being kinda newb and a human core overtraining elites, apparently we didn't have enough gold for a dragon out of eowcf. I think it hurt that we initially thought we would get a CF, since people rebuilt into 50% guilds and stuff and so rebuilding was expensive in a short amount of time, but still, they could have just trained a lot of defspecs. In retrospect, I probably should have ran a dwarf core this age, because it's just a lot easier with our activity, level of micromanagement, and is more forgiving when mistakes are made. But anyways, now we've slain two dragons from AMA and we haven't even sent one of our own, which is embarrassing, but we soldier on. I haven't even hit yet.

- Sorry for the wall of text it's just been a while since I posted since I've been busy (school started early for me) so I like to really jam it in (that's what he said ROFL).

[Chrystal Palace]

who doesnt +4 and max gain when they lost war? i dont believe cello said those things tetley but you my boy so i am torn.

[Minty]

AMA being AMA

[goodz]

Of course its normal to try to minimize losses from war. Cello being silly. But his motives are irrelevant.

Nothing wrong with AMA using superior position and force you into 2nd hostile if you won't give free acres. If they only wanted like 3k acres you made a terrible call by not giving in. This is a mechanics issue not an issue with AMA. (although it would be nice to give cf since its obvious outcome)

How many free acres did AMA want for CF?


Bigger issue is that mechanics for whoring are so bad that this is obvious right move if you want to win. Obvious if you win war you come out in much better position. Meter max is so low that you wave them again and they cannot retaliate properly so basically stuck warring and losing again. If game mods can think of any other way to play this situation besides giving a bunch of free acres / losing a 2nd war ill be surprised :P

Jerks have done many lame things in past so perhaps they are playing it forward. They are named jerks and have pendal? What do you expect... :P

[flogger]

maxgain +4 hitting in war is standard.

5-7k acres for EoA CF isn't too much either.

Should have agreed EoW terms before war start.

Both sides need to learn compromise

/endthread.

[Vivic]

CF is not related with the war. war is war, cf is cf. while in inferior position ppl have to give acres for cf. simple. you rejected and now the acres are being extracted manually...

and btw the cello's offer was insanely good for you - abt 8% from your land. i dont remember when ama gave eoacf for such low price.

[Chrystal Palace]

and when was last time AMA got free cf?
so Vivid what you are saying we should have demanded land from you after we beat you? isnt that just a prick move?

[Vivic]

i dont say its nice, but jerks were not nice to us in the past either.
abt what cf terms ama have with pew, im not awared, and its irrelevant to the thread.

[StratOcastle]

To my thinking they need to war you to stay in the race. They must be in a position of strength to trade war partners with BB.
When you look at AMA/BB you should consider how kingdoms will fall in ideal nw territory. They are diametrically opposed builds(AMA/BB)age to age; while I buy in that they each choose their own kingdom build I always notice flogger builds immense hammers and Elit/Dirty'(?) build triads.

AMA uses an acre digestion system and flogger blundgeons enemies with overwhelming logistics. AMA pounds enemies into clearly recognizable shapes when they have their way. Resist this and it can frustrate the tactic. Oh, and they're the best I've seen doing it btw.

If I were you, and I'm nobody so don't worry about that, I'd decimate the AMA core. You have humans for the long game. Count on your fellow tops, even if they're enemies, to be able to handle AMA cows and you might find yourself back in the race. You know what to do. Have fun and tell your guys to embrace the challenge. Warring great kingdoms allows you to dissect a bit of what they do and how they do it.

Despite these comments I wish you both a valued war.

[flogger]

To my thinking they need to war you to stay in the race. They must be in a position of strength to trade war partners with BB.
When you look at AMA/BB you should consider how kingdoms will fall in ideal nw territory. They are diametrically opposed builds(AMA/BB)age to age; while I buy in that they each choose their own kingdom build I always notice flogger builds immense hammers and Elit/Dirty'(?) build triads.

AMA uses an acre digestion system and flogger blundgeons enemies with overwhelming logistics. AMA pounds enemies into clearly recognizable shapes when they have their way. Resist this and it can frustrate the tactic. Oh, and they're the best I've seen doing it btw.

If I were you, and I'm nobody so don't worry about that, I'd decimate the AMA core. You have humans for the long game. Count on your fellow tops, even if they're enemies, to be able to handle AMA cows and you might find yourself back in the race. You know what to do. Have fun and tell your guys to embrace the challenge. Warring great kingdoms allows you to dissect a bit of what they do and how they do it.

Despite these comments I wish you both a valued war.

I have no idea what any of this means

[Elldallan]

Figure this deserves its own thread.

- Jerks warred AMA, lost, it was a fun good war. At the end, we did a "max gain" wave with +4 hits from 6 or 7 of our big provinces, which was worth about 2400 acres total. The +4 hours added roughly 400 acres.

- Cello seemed very upset about this, claiming that it's poor sportsmanship and bad manners. I apologized for the +4 (if it's truly BM) but I didn't apologize for the max gain wave, because, as far as I understand, it's fairly routine for most kingdoms to phase into max gain hits in the last wave of war. He claimed this wasn't the case. What are people's thoughts on this?

- Personally, I think we timed it well and were able to withdraw one tick before their elves got home. It was the correct strategic play. Cello claimed they would have CFed us but for this final wave.

I'd say that maxgain is pretty common yes, +4 depends on circumstances as it completely reveals your intentions.
You think that you made the "correct" strategic play, but then unless AMA has somewhere else they need to be the correct strategic decision for them would clearly be to go for round 2 as they're clearly in a superior position and they have absolutely no obligation to settle things with you and not go for round 2. And with the relation system being what it is at the moment you have no way to resist effectively when they go for round 2.
Whatever else Cello might have said he was correct when he said that it's suicide for you to go into round 2.

The reason I put citation marks on your correct is because it's pretty well known that AMA considers there to be bad blood between them and Jerks so unless you were absolutely certain that they had somewhere else they needed to be directly after the war you should have anticipated that the cost of CF would be very high or that there would be a round 2. Hence I think that it was probably not the correct strategical move by you.
And frankly I think that the 3k+5k without restrictions for eoa cf is a bloody bargain all things considered, especially considering your +4 maxgain, you were incredibly silly for not taking it and outright stupid for not taking the renegotiated deal. Now you have to play the hand you dealt yourself, you have no one to blame but yourself for the position you're currently in.

[ZodZilla]

came for the lulz

was not disappointed

[Ursuul]

brb AMA never heard of max gains before WD, use it as excuse to continue farming the KD that just lost the war.

Chart manipulators at worst, whiney bully kids at best.

[Elit]

tetley being bad leader is main problem. You should know game better when you make your decisions. We was ready for give you CF for free if you have WD min time but you special hold your armies for max gains from our top land provinces before you WD. Its valid game tactic but you should know its drop your chances for get free cf after it. We was feel we need to back our acres before give you CF and we made it clear to you. You had chance for get for 5k CF (your max gains was 2500) but you rejected it and told you are going to fight. Now don't complain when its YOUR decision.

Dont forget past 3 ages every age your kd made ****s to us and its alone are enough for going hard on you now. For example this age when we did hit early on Jerks your stepward send us in game msg how we can do "X" hits and after it we can accept CF he have send in game cf propose. We did hits and after it monarch (you) pop online, reject CF and FB our cow. Its was one from main reasons we have loss after it war to pew pew. You think you can nonstop mess with us like it and we wont pay back? Wrong call!

[noobium]

i thought continuing hostile after war was an expected practice at top levels, as was +4ing before withdrawal? as is getting on a high horse, but meh to that.