Mediation - AMA/Pewpew/Pyro

[Korp]

Like the rest of the server. You can still be bigger than others, you should just be prepared for war at any time as the KDs around you are actually threats instead of allies. The CFs leads to top-KDs being able to get away with any kind of pumping strats on 30% draft, while the rest of the server cannot afford to do that. If you're so top, you should be top based on the individual class of the players in running their provinces both OOW and in war.

If you followed the kd dramas in the forum you would realize that none of these things are true.

[Lurking Ghost]

Like the rest of the server. You can still be bigger than others, you should just be prepared for war at any time as the KDs around you are actually threats instead of allies. The CFs leads to top-KDs being able to get away with any kind of pumping strats on 30% draft, while the rest of the server cannot afford to do that. If you're so top, you should be top based on the individual class of the players in running their provinces both OOW and in war.

If it was up to invidual provinces, that may well be true. But it's obvious that it doesn't work that way.
If you want to compete at the top, you need resources, you need preparation, and you need to be able to defend the land you own.
It is impossible to do that for an entire set because the game mechanics do not promote fast growth.
If you do well in a war and end up quite big, without a CF, you will be stripped of all land you got because you don't have the means and resources to defend it.

Game mechanics is what makes cfs come up in place, not the skill or lack of skill at invidual player level.

[Sheister]

imho

right now the only real problem with the game is not CFs it is the changes that happened after age 53 (or was it 54) with the capping of the hostile meter and the alteration of mechanics to make hostiling larger kingdoms much more difficult. I respect that this was instituted because snakes (pew pew predecessor) used the prior mechanics to abuse some abs KD but I think the "solution" was too much.

[Bukharistan]

If you followed the kd dramas in the forum you would realize that none of these things are true.

The fact that this turns out to be a drama only further proves my point that it is true. I don't see ghetto's out here crying because a CF was broken. Yesterday we got out of EOW CF, a KD we offered CF and were on good terms with broke CF and waved us for our cash. "Sniff sniff". You don't see me coming here whining for it 30+ pages long.

If you do well in a war and end up quite big, without a CF, you will be stripped of all land you got because you don't have the means and resources to defend it.

96 hours of EOW CF is enough for that. And even if you lose some land, so what?


It's the expectations that need to change. Expectations for our top-KDs is that end of age they need to be 20-30 times as big as the average ghetto. Can't they be happy with being 3-4 times as big? Each KD will suffer from the things said above. KD A wars B, beats them and takes a chunk of land. C interferes waves A after war and takes chunk of their land but gets opped back. Then KD D steps in and wars landfat C. So next time C will take care not to land-farm a KD while not having their backs coverered by CFs. Or they might take some land, but not move the meter too much (2 big land-hits just before 24th, 1 after so the meter isn't pushed to UF).

You have to ask yourself, what do these 5-6 KDs at the top contribute to the gameplay of the other 250 KDs?

[Sheister]

The fact that this turns out to be a drama only further proves my point that it is true. I don't see ghetto's out here crying because a CF was broken. Yesterday we got out of EOW CF, a KD we offered CF and were on good terms with broke CF and waved us for our cash. "Sniff sniff". You don't see me coming here whining for it 30+ pages long.

because diplomacy and keeping your word is not part of the game in the space you play in.

96 hours of EOW CF is enough for that. And even if you lose some land, so what?

they are trying to get max land, so losing land is counter productive.

It's the expectations that need to change. Expectations for our top-KDs is that end of age they need to be 20-30 times as big as the average ghetto. Can't they be happy with being 3-4 times as big?

you misunderstand. They don't care if they are 2x or 50X larger than most kingdoms, they care that they are bigger than #2. the scale is driven by competition among themselves and has little to do with the rest of the server beyond occasionally harvesting off some province that trickles into range by getting too big from whatever circumstance.

You have to ask yourself, what do these 5-6 KDs at the top contribute to the gameplay of the other 250 KDs?

nothing.

[Lurking Ghost]

96 hours of EOW CF is enough for that. And even if you lose some land, so what?

When you loose land, you loose military, which means you can loose even more land. It's a downwards sipral that's hard to break.

Why do you think top kds invest so much time in "diplomacy" ?

It's the expectations that need to change. Expectations for our top-KDs is that end of age they need to be 20-30 times as big as the average ghetto. Can't they be happy with being 3-4 times as big? Each KD will suffer from the things said above. KD A wars B, beats them and takes a chunk of land. C interferes waves A after war and takes chunk of their land but gets opped back. Then KD D steps in and wars landfat C. So next time C will take care not to land-farm a KD while not having their backs coverered by CFs. Or they might take some land, but not move the meter too much (2 big land-hits just before 24th, 1 after so the meter isn't pushed to UF).

And what good would that do ?
In the top, the logic is quite simple. Stay ahead of number 2, (no 2, stay ahead of no 3, and bite no 1).
But game mechanic make it more profitable for No2 to bite No3, and get place No1.
That's why so much diplo is involved.

You have to ask yourself, what do these 5-6 KDs at the top contribute to the gameplay of the other 250 KDs?

Nothing more than those 250. Everyone plays according to whatever goals they have. Top kd goal is not worth more than a "ghetto" goal and vice versa.

[Bukharistan]

All you guys do is explaining how the system currently works, but that doesn't change the fact that in my opinion the top should compete more directly --> and hopefully stay a bit more in range of other Kingdoms.

because diplomacy and keeping your word is not part of the game in the space you play in.

If you don't make these deals then it's impossible for them to get broken :)

When you loose land, you loose military, which means you can loose even more land. It's a downwards sipral that's hard to break.

Why do you think top kds invest so much time in "diplomacy" ?

There are ways to fight back without giving the button, which will lead the aggressor to become land-fat. Without a system of CFs this is very dangerous because any other KD can jump on their backs (as just happened with AMA). In other words, botom-feeding will become harder, not easier.

Nothing more than those 250. Everyone plays according to whatever goals they have. Top kd goal is not worth more than a "ghetto" goal and vice versa.

a huge chunk of the server is wtihint 200%-300% NW-range of eachother, with KDs dropping/growing over time to get into different ranges. You have to take care who you **** over because after your next war they might be bigger and get back at you. Then there is a group of a few KDs that are 7-8 times the median KD-size. They can pretty much do whatever they want as they're too afraid to fight eachother on a regular base and therefore hide behind non-intervention deals.

I'm not saying there is no logic behind it, just saying that they're effectively placing themselves outside of the community.

[StratOcastle]

@ Bukharistan. My intuition tells me it's occurred to you to probe the upper echelons. This is the interesting zone between diplo and formidability(top 10-20) Some are up there because they are very dangerous in war, others because they understand navigation. To qualify that, I know of some very capable war kingdoms that are penny smart and pound stupid in navigating; no offense. They seem to expend an extraordinary effort hiding their true identity and taking securable wars despite their prowess. I'm not criticizing the war effort, since I've seen them rock when they get to their intended competition. But they get confused about the lattice work of CF and who might scratch whos back.

Top kingdoms have similar characteristics, but their war capability begins where most war kingdoms end. Despite AMAs failures this age, I've been most intrigued by their war prowess as a top kingdom. They have demonstrated the ability to defeat stronger opponents of top experience more than I've seen from the rest.

With a shrinking player base the scale has probably moved into the top 15, but my most recent experience was probing the top 20. The likes of Plaidovia, as we were, you could dip into the top 20 and then be repelled. This is essentially the barrier between decent activity and the addition of formal organization. Oh, we have organization even down here but it's not strictly enforced activity and obedience.

My personal feelings are that I enjoy tangling with the best competition, but I prefer my disorganized raw game experience. I wouldn't find joy playing in a top kingdom, warring or whoring, but I do respect what they are. In my Virtual Kingdom I approach touching the face of these Utopian icons by building a dangerous kingdom strat. I guess the difference is that I don't consider it deterrence but a way to experience violent exchanges. All in good gaming.

[Korp]

The fact that this turns out to be a drama only further proves my point that it is true. I don't see ghetto's out here crying because a CF was broken. Yesterday we got out of EOW CF, a KD we offered CF and were on good terms with broke CF and waved us for our cash. "Sniff sniff". You don't see me coming here whining for it 30+ pages long.

How does it prove your point is true? If your point was true there would be no drama in the top cause everyone had cfs and everyone was allied with eachother. Also there was no cf broken between Pewpew and AMA. Also you dont come here making a drama cause nobody would care what happend in the ghetto world cause such happenings are too common down there where people behave like douchebags all the time. In the end for you it meant that you're not good enough to hold on to your money and a kingdom saw to abuse that weakness.
re n

[Bukharistan]

How does it prove your point is true?

Let me ask you, how does it prove I'm right?

Also you dont come here making a drama cause nobody would care what happend in the ghetto world cause such happenings are too common down there where people behave like douchebags all the time.

I did come here, but I don't think I'm "making a drama". Stay on topic please. This has nothing to do with ghetto's, we were talking about top-KDs.

In the end for you it meant that you're not good enough to hold on to your money and a kingdom saw to abuse that weakness.

Agreed, and sadly I wasn't CFed to every KD that could be a threat to me. I'm not complaining about it, just saying that the top shouldn't complain about it either, plus I'm saying that top-KDs should try and crown without CFing everyone.

[Korp]

I did come here, but I don't think I'm "making a drama". Stay on topic please. This has nothing to do with ghetto's, we were talking about top-KDs.

Yet you brought up ghettos yourself...

Agreed, and sadly I wasn't CFed to every KD that could be a threat to me. I'm not complaining about it, just saying that the top shouldn't complain about it either, plus I'm saying that top-KDs should try and crown without CFing everyone.

Dont bring up ghettos, you are going off topic!!! So if everyone is cf with everyone how come there is war in the top? By your own logic there shouldnt be any wars in the top cause everyeone is cfed with everyone. Its rather pointless to discuss this with you though since you lack the necessary knowledge to have a sound and good discussion. Also why you off topic? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DONT GO OFF TOPIC :(

[Shai]

Ok so here is what I think it is:

Combination of:

1. Exploration.
2. Botomfeeding (because all KDs in range are CFed)
3. The occasional war at the top (followed by 300+ post forum topics blaming both sides)
4. More exploration/botomfeeding.

Now please explain to me how it works, and then I promise you to eat those words.

spot on

[tetley]

bukharistan if you want to lead a war ghetto that's totally your prerogative but you actually can't talk about whoring + the top if you won't play there. You don't even know what you don't know.

[Aranfein]

Bukharistan, your points are valid but they lack a bit of understanding.

Its true whoring kingdoms place CFs in order to not get farmed, and its true if they all dropped making CFs they would be closer inrange to everybody else and war more.

Here is where i think your wrong, if they do drop CFs and get inrange to everybody else, their activity and skill/strategic understanding would simply out class opponents anyway and to get ahead they would look to much weaker kingdoms, in order to get ahead and finish wars within 48hrs, to be able to not lose too much military, so they are ready after end EoWCF to jump the next kingdom, which would ruin moral of less active kingdoms, Instead they CF and farm maybe 1 kingdom early to get a good start then after YR6 they are out of range of all apart from top5 so they are focused on just the top and leaves others alone.

Its annoying they take down 1 of your provinces that gets a bit too big however ill rather that then them trying to farm a kingdom of 20 when they are 25 and super active.

cJ you cant claim its different and then say you dont have time to explain, if you call someones thinking flawed at least explain to him why, because i remember yourself and Nesta begged the top not to hit you and give you free CFs so you could make it into top10 and war "these skill less whoring KDs"...