Human/Sage advice and tips

[zotti]

Hi everyone,I play human sage and I want to improve as much as I can, I like sage versatility and I hope to see some practical advice to my play style or practical alternatives :)

first I'd like to add some context:
I play in a ghetto kingdom at the moment, pretty low tier but we're building it into a fun environment. it's slow but the fun speeds it up :P

I try to play human sage as solid as I can, I get bored only attacking so I try A/T and as the age progresses and my sci gets better some 1-1.5raw wpa ( for defensive purpose) + sci and extra greeds/storms on key targets (which t/m's and hybrids ignore in most ghettos).

some prov details: 331 bpa. I know I need more for a sage but I recently came back to utopia, bout 4 weeks.

** Effects Summary (Known Science Only) **
13.7% Income (35,731 books)
10.2% Building Effectiveness (38,707 books)
6.6% Population Limits (38,063 books)
59.8% Food Production (20,771 books)
7.4% Gains in Combat (47,997 books)
70.1% Thievery Effectiveness (50,688 books)
61.2% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production (38,606 books)

I'm thinking pre-war through hostilities going smth like this:

20% homes
7% farms
10% rax
15% hospitals
10% guilds ( for a bit extended duration spells together with the human bonus)
8% towers
6% WT , last war I ran no wt with 17% dens, got propped and lost like 0.5
3% libs
9% stables
2% dungeons ( should I go 3%? )

I have
Wizards 1,209 (1.48 Wizards Per Acre)
Thieves 1,846 (2.259 per acre) 5 mod tpa , going for 2.2k thieves MAYBE, thoughts, how many? 230 thieves in training
7.4 elites/acre
8.12 def spec/acre
Military & Thief population 14,956 (61.4% of total)going for 66 up to as much as my income allows it, I suppose I'd stop at 70%? not sure what my draft rate should be but I feel I lack both military and thievery which is the reason I came here :)

keep in mind that i am very active, so suggest the best I could do with thievery according to this ,ANY ideas are welcome.

What I do with thievery is riots on high pesants targets and any additional key targets (non t/m). after these are up I might kidnap from fb target, unless I need to repop fast any gained land to keep a strong economy flowing in which case I pick a high pessie target that will stay untouched and stick to it( my attempt to counter durability problems while crippling their economy), ns stacks of soldiers , steal runes to prevent self spells when I see an opportunity or ns easy target if rest don't apply.

so i'm thinking about homes, what I do is let them "wear off" and rebuild what is needed to adapt to given circumstances. minimum 10% training grounds as soon as possible.
should I go higher homes pre-wa, like 30%r? is it effective? what do I take from if so?
I recently did some math for 10% homes vs 10% training grounds and found out that runnung 10% homes helps a lot so I'm going 20% now. I like the homes for pumping combined with 10% banks it allows me to draft faster and higher,pumping elites faster which in turn helps to make learns whenever duty doesn't call on killing inactives (which is rare lol)

any Ideas on what I could do better? is 5 mod tpa enough or should I aim for 6 which I kind of am, but is more raw tpa worth sacrificing military?

sorry for the long, dull and incoherent post and thank you for your patience !

[smercjd]

As a sage - (especially a human) - science is your friend. When you're NOT in war.
25% Homes
5-10% Farms (depending on how much you need)
20% Banks
10%+ Guilds (if you need to pump wizards, obviously get more guilds)
5-10% Towers (the lower amount of farms you need, the more towers you can get --- you want enough to use ToG consistently and when you want to actually research your books, to cast FoK)
20% Schoosl
10% Remainder (this depends on what you do OOW, if you attack, I HIGHLY recommend hospitals...also, IF you are attacking, I HIGHLY recommend learns only)

IN war, however, you want to convert your build
if you're worried about homes - 25% should be about right. Keep in mind that hybrids require more homes (usually) because they require more ppa.

Once you get in the 1000bpa range, I'd aim for
35% Homes
5% Farms
12% Guilds
8% Towers
13% Hospitals
12% Thieve's Dens
5% Libraries
10% (Remainder -- depending on what you're up against could be more of everything above, or GS/Rax/TGs/Forts/Banks/etc)
I don't recommend Stables/Dungeons..I also recommend 5% Rax because it puts you under 12hr attack time in war (2/day) -- the homes usually make up for the stables/dungeons --but they also provide more of other stuff...

keep in mind -- I'm not suggesting to raze your homes like most people would say to do with a high homes build. But as you gain/lose acres and need to rebuild, don't build new homes - build the other buildings.
your tpa/wpa is good to have about 3 raw of each for hybrid (OR MORE) --science and thieve's dens should do the rest...BUT, if you're up against a KD with lower tpa, you might not need as much or whatever.

As a human (especially a hybrid) you want to be near the top of your KD in terms on land/nw. You want the option of keeping your elites home and being UB. You also want enough tpa/wpa to block enemies from shelling you. If you're UB and too hard to shell -- you can be a HUGE asset to dragon funding/slaying and eventually make nice hits while still remaining UB.

[zotti]

thanks, much appreciated!

[zotti]

what's like the best % of thieves to send on ns's for example? i recall seeing smth like sending 50% thieves or more in ops reduces randomization close to nothing. the less u send the higher the randomization, is this correct?

[Bukharistan]

35% homes on a human/sage? You want to run 240 npa?:P

15% is enough. Your sci will keep your BE/pop high enough. I'd run this as Human/Sage A/T:

1. Homes: 150 (15%)
2. Farms: 50 (5%)
3. Training Grounds: 100 (10%)
4. Military Barracks: 50 (5%)
5. Forts: 100 (10%)
6. Hospitals: 100 (10%)
7. Guilds: 150 (15%)
8. Towers: 50 (5%)
9. Thieves' Dens: 150 (15%)
10. Libraries: 100 (10%)

Run 4 raw tpa and pump your thievery sci, then you'll be fine.

Army: About 8 def specs/8 elites per acre should be doable. Will give you 40-45 dpa all out, 80-90 dpa army home. About 70 opa, but as you're an A/T you can easily steal the 8 horses/acre to go along wiht your army, pushing your offense towards 80-85 opa.

Wouldn't worry too much about WPA. MS is going to be cast on you regardless, unless you want to push towards 10+ for which you will never have the space.
The guilds are for giving you a good successrate on ToG.

[Bukharistan]

what's like the best % of thieves to send on ns's for example? i recall seeing smth like sending 50% thieves or more in ops reduces randomization close to nothing. the less u send the higher the randomization, is this correct?

Depends on how many thieves you have really. If you run 4 tpa raw, you might have to send half your thieves, while if you run 8 tpa raw, 25% will do (assuming NW/size are the same). It's a matter of trial and error. I usually start high then build off and see if damage decreases significantly.

[Bukharistan]

On a side-note, the spell duration bonus of humans makes human/saga a more obvious A/M than A/T.

[smercjd]

35% homes on a human/sage? You want to run 240 npa?:P

15% is enough. Your sci will keep your BE/pop high enough. I'd run this as Human/Sage A/T:

1. Homes: 150 (15%)
2. Farms: 50 (5%)
3. Training Grounds: 100 (10%)
4. Military Barracks: 50 (5%)
5. Forts: 100 (10%)
6. Hospitals: 100 (10%)
7. Guilds: 150 (15%)
8. Towers: 50 (5%)
9. Thieves' Dens: 150 (15%)
10. Libraries: 100 (10%)

Run 4 raw tpa and pump your thievery sci, then you'll be fine.

Army: About 8 def specs/8 elites per acre should be doable. Will give you 40-45 dpa all out, 80-90 dpa army home. About 70 opa, but as you're an A/T you can easily steal the 8 horses/acre to go along wiht your army, pushing your offense towards 80-85 opa.

Wouldn't worry too much about WPA. MS is going to be cast on you regardless, unless you want to push towards 10+ for which you will never have the space.
The guilds are for giving you a good successrate on ToG.

Yes...yes you do. Having a huge NWPA is immensely wonderful. Anyone in your NW range will get terrible gains because they will have way more acres...anyone in your acre range will get terrible gains because they are nowhere near your NW. Additionally, any hybrid should want more than 15% homes because you need them.

[Bukharistan]

You on 1000 acres and 240K NW will be destroyed by an Orc on 1500 acres 240K NW. You will be sitting on 80K off max, he'll be sitting on 150-160K.

What would win? 10 orcs on 1500 or 10 humans on 1000 acres?

Additionally, any hybrid should want more than 15% homes because you need them.

Now that is convincing. Hybrids needs homes, because they need homes because they need them.


10% forts save you 1 space defensively (assuming 8 def specs --> 7 def specs). Plus it gives you stronger turtle capabilities. In the same vein the TGs save you off space, also about 1. So in sum you save 14 npa for a prov with the same strength.

P.S. what would happen to your human after 3-4 razes?

[noobium]

y'all are silly.

lots of homes on human is a good idea though. just have a sense of when you can raze the homes for vital war buildings. human's greatest sore spot is their lack of attacking bonuses outside of war. their sustainability in war is quite good despite what people often believe; their difficulty comes during periods where the human is too unprepared to fight and can't fix their economy fast enough. other races get useful economic freebies, but human has to plan on pumping and maintaining a sound economy. in the long term, humans want to have good science and enough tpa/wpa to function offensively against select targets. humans are at their best when they fill a kind of a/t/m niche (btw human's preference by far is for thievery - is 3 extra hours of greed or explosions that big a deal - but human is better at exploiting weak spots as a/t/m, and should only jam 4-5 tpa on a province for situations where it is necessary, otherwise they're just giant prop farms for actually good rogues)

[smercjd]

[QUOTE=Bukharistan;15312999]You on 1000 acres and 240K NW will be destroyed by an Orc on 1500 acres 240K NW. You will be sitting on 80K off max, he'll be sitting on 150-160K.

What would win? 10 orcs on 1500 or 10 humans on 1000 acres?

The humans...most of them can turtle that much defense and stay UB from the orcs. Cast spells/run ops on them all day. Wear them out, and if they do manage to break the humans, the humans can 4x retal w/o sending much defense out to begin with.
Hands down - Human/Sages will beat Orc/Anythings when their NW is equivalent.
Orc at 1500 acres hits human for 150 acres - Human retals orc 4x for 200 acres each hit...GG

[noobium]

orc is more about utilizing +20% gains and +20% kills when they are really, really potent. war (and the early stages of war at that) is only a small fraction of the game anyway.

what's like the best % of thieves to send on ns's for example? i recall seeing smth like sending 50% thieves or more in ops reduces randomization close to nothing. the less u send the higher the randomization, is this correct?

target defspecs * 0.18 (if trying to kill defspec) OR
target elites * 0.23 (if trying to kill elites) OR
target soldiers * 0.23 (if trying to kill basic soldiers only)

usually, a/t should go for the first one, t/m should go for the second one, and pure attackers would go for the third (if they nightstrike at all). very likely, as human w/o dens you would do the first or the third, while a t/m or a/t with good dens would go for the second.

these all assume being in nw range of the target, and of course you should have at least 2:1 mTPA to expect any consistent success.

i would say though, you'd probably want tg if attacking as human. while raw offense wins out, you would still want tg unless your mil science is really good. it is a nice surprise for ghetto kingdoms that don't realize that a province can swap in 15% tg mid-war and have way more offense than anticipated.

[zotti]

so i'm getting to 8 elites/acre now, razed my stables for tg's, I have 3 raw tpa + 10% dens, 7+ mod tpa, I will transfer10 of my 30% homes into more tg's or forts after I draft, after war i'd slowly transition my homes into more dens/tg/s... and i'll steal some warhorses + ome I should be fine I guess, I'll see how this goes, thanks for your replies!

[Bukharistan]

The humans...most of them can turtle that much defense and stay UB from the orcs.

Apart from the fact that a 1500-acre orc can nearly double-tap a 1000-acre human with army home.

[noobium]

it is a good idea to be able to play your province at pretty much any position in the kingdom, rather than locking your strategy into having provinces in particular positions. while some are naturally suited to playing certain spots - faeries really need to be big, and orcs overwhelmingly favor being near the bottom of nw - other kingdoms won't always cooperate in letting you size your provinces exactly the way you would like.

humans can play at small sizes and large sizes quite well, although as sage you would probably want the best position possible for acquiring books which means being bigger is better. i wouldn't play sage if i never expected to break 2k acres though (or i'm forced to of course).