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Thread: A New way of Warring

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    A New way of Warring

    I noticed that the changes this age have brought a HUGE change in the ways wars are fought. Where in the past most KDs would run their attackers on 25-30 dpa with Guard Stations to limit gains, nowadays Guard Stations are barely seen anymore and forts have taken their place. Most attackers are able to just-about double-tap if the enemy sends out. This has given rise to a whole new dimension in the game, with chaining having become harder and thus less important. Would like to hear other people's views about this, and whether they noticed the same things (more turtling, slower warfare with less hits and less gains).

    And has this redefined the role of TMs?

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    actually good warring kingdoms wouldn't bother with gs outside of the few places where they will do actual good.
    forts have actually been good on attacker types for a while, but like most things utopia is full of sheep and a few goatherds who have successfully convinced the rest of the server to play like total garbage so they'll have an endless supply of easy war wins and acres, and generally easier time extracting science when they want to (since they've encouraged kingdoms to play in a way which ensures that most kingdoms never get good science, the few who find a way despite that get mercilessly farmed sooner or later).

    the big catalyst for this though is new milsci, which means that chains don't run as deep and relatively speaking attackers get more defense than offense if they use standard strategies. the upshot is that many attackers can actually run with no tg, and just use science and racial mods to carry their province. tg are still really good, they're just no longer mandatory.

    that said most kingdoms, even so-called good warring kingdoms, don't do landchaining anywhere near properly and make huge leaks. actually good kingdoms can still landchain quite well, but it has been mercifully nerfed to the point where it's not so ridiculous, and wars aren't as decided by nw gains stupidity and the rape province button.

    the traditional t/m was dead around age 56, or whenever faeries were dropped to /5 and lost their spellbook.
    Last edited by noobium; 11-09-2014 at 10:28.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    actually good warring kingdoms wouldn't bother with gs outside of the few places where they will do actual good.
    forts have actually been good on attacker types for a while, but like most things utopia is full of sheep and a few goatherds who have successfully convinced the rest of the server to play like total garbage so they'll have an endless supply of easy war wins and acres, and generally easier time extracting science when they want to (since they've encouraged kingdoms to play in a way which ensures that most kingdoms never get good science, the few who find a way despite that get mercilessly farmed sooner or later).

    the big catalyst for this though is new milsci, which means that chains don't run as deep and relatively speaking attackers get more defense than offense if they use standard strategies. the upshot is that many attackers can actually run with no tg, and just use science and racial mods to carry their province. tg are still really good, they're just no longer mandatory.

    that said most kingdoms, even so-called good warring kingdoms, don't do landchaining anywhere near properly and make huge leaks. actually good kingdoms can still landchain quite well, but it has been mercifully nerfed to the point where it's not so ridiculous, and wars aren't as decided by nw gains stupidity and the rape province button.

    the traditional t/m was dead around age 56, or whenever faeries were dropped to /5 and lost their spellbook.
    who doesnt bother with gs and uses forts instead? thats pretty bad advice :p

    and no, traditional tm is standing right there and possibly more powerful than ever..

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    I wouldn't say "more powerful than ever", but yea TMs are still a strong and necessary role for a successful kd.

    I'm not sure what conspiracy kool-aid noobium is drinking.

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    TMs have their role to play still. With provinces running higher def these days, TMs are a great way to lower their def to go from double to triple or even quad-taps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoRD_SaMPuaN View Post
    who doesnt bother with gs and uses forts instead? thats pretty bad advice :p

    and no, traditional tm is standing right there and possibly more powerful than ever..
    why use either? gs are a situational building. tg/forts are merely a matter of where a province has their raw military, and whether those provinces are controlling their defense at home or not. stables/homes for raw military are usually better than forts on attackers, but for dwarf or human with /3 or /4 on their elite, forts are a lot more useful.
    the change to % * 2 on forts was necessary due to military science changes, otherwise attackers would run roughshod over everything else. forts are far more useful on small% than gs, since 5-10% gs does roughly jack and **** for a province unless they're some BE-tweaked dwarf or something.

    and yes, traditional t/m (as in, expect never to be hit all age, and huge defense against any ops others can throw at you) is very much dead. since faery can hit stuff now, it's not a big deal, and definitely preferable to old faery which made the warring tier too predictable. good t/ms now need to know how to hit stuff - it has been this way for a while and it is the best way to play elf or halfling by far. unfortunately there a lot of elves and halflings that are afraid to take in acres for silly reasons, due to noob culture.

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    +1 to noobium, a few fearies are fine if positioned right in a kd, but they'll need to be able to be a a/t/m late war to really help a kd. Its why most kds need elfs/halfering unless you go with the FS setup and resign yourself to losing 5-6 fearies every war while u just op your enemy to crap

    The traditional t/m of no hits just ops stoped working 100% when fearies lost MS as a racial spell.
    Last edited by Persain; 11-09-2014 at 22:42.

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    Tbh with the changes I think a faery circle KD would work again. 6 faery/mystic, 10 faery/rogue, 9 faery/sage. Just AW the crap out of any enemy TMs, cast ET on their thieves. You can easily run 100 dpa to make the chains very slowly, and LL the land you need back. Then whenever you want to chain a target you just opp the crap out of him and put him on 10 dpa to rip apart with your low-value offensive armies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    +1 to noobium, a few fearies are fine if positioned right in a kd, but they'll need to be able to be a a/t/m late war to really help a kd. Its why most kds need elfs/halfering unless you go with the FS setup and resign yourself to losing 5-6 fearies every war while u just op your enemy to crap

    The traditional t/m of no hits just ops stoped working 100% when fearies lost MS as a racial spell.
    Are we talking about TMs, or faeries? These are two independent things...

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    faery circle would be really good last age. this age it is problematic, with faery elites costing so much and science being a higher priority for everyone, along with mystics and rogues being able to overpower sages. the change to mil sci makes attackers so much more buff too, especially if the attackers know how to utilize their t/m ability effectively (big issue with a lot of kingdoms; undead is and should be a capable spellcaster, and just about everyone is way too cautious with offensive thievery, even on provinces that aren't normally good thieves - primarily orcs.

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    I don't understand the no GS thing. It doesn't make chains harder, it makes them way easier.

    Big winners this age are actually econ attackers, especially human and dwarf sage, as evidenced by the setups of basically every top kd.

    Then, as CR learned, there's a maximum to the number of useful t/ms especially against these setups (i.e., for duration op, clearing stocks, and chain assistance) where a loss of an attacker is a big problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    faery circle would be really good last age. this age it is problematic, with faery elites costing so much and science being a higher priority for everyone, along with mystics and rogues being able to overpower sages. the change to mil sci makes attackers so much more buff too, especially if the attackers know how to utilize their t/m ability effectively (big issue with a lot of kingdoms; undead is and should be a capable spellcaster, and just about everyone is way too cautious with offensive thievery, even on provinces that aren't normally good thieves - primarily orcs.
    Faery circle is much more feasible this age than last age (or any other age ever since they had their elites dropped from /6 def, for that matter). Faery elites arent cost prohibitive nor NW inefficient if you play to their strengths and pump correctly. Mystics don't overpower sage at all from my experience. Only rogues, and those are taken care of with some start of war workup. What sage has over both of these is markedly higher pump potential and well-roundedness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meeni View Post
    Big winners this age are actually econ attackers, especially human and dwarf sage, as evidenced by the setups of basically every top kd.

    Then, as CR learned, there's a maximum to the number of useful t/ms especially against these setups (i.e., for duration op, clearing stocks, and chain assistance) where a loss of an attacker is a big problem.
    I can't say I agree with this statement. Top play is not the same, and the maximal number of t/ms you can realistically field in a warring KD is very high.

    GS are definitely necessary though, I agree. -20% gains is a lot. No amount of forts will stop a concentrated deep chain. What takes 4 hits to take you down will take 5. Overall that will amount to 1 prov saved every 1-2 waves.
    Last edited by Nightmare_; 14-09-2014 at 11:49.

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    Yeah but fort allows you to suffer less hits... often difference between double or triple tap.

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    Forts increase defense with good science but if you get chained. Are you going to build more forts? I say no. My science will increase with chain. Therefore increased efficiency from science not as much. I feel when you get deep chained you should have as many guard station as possible to reduce loss. Also I would develop 30% barracks to go for or up 3 attacks a day. Keeping offense out so you retain as much as possible. And also if others do correct chaining you can continue to hit chained targets and be able to sustain or regrow depending on position in being hit in war. Then if possible forts.

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