Making propaganda useful

[Araqiel]

Lets talk about Propaganda.

Sometimes it is ridiculously strong, other times it is utterly useless.

The ridiculously strong: (assuming sending ~10k thieves)

- Getting 600 specs (several lucky spec conversions in a row is insane)
- Getting 400 thieves

The utterly useless:

- The randomness (trying to convert dspecs on a prov with no dspecs)
- 0 conversions on army out

The Freak personality was removed for good reason. Propaganda is the freak of ops.

Propaganda requires you to send a huge number of thieves, resulting in quick burnout if you are unlucky with it. The risk is high, the reward is massively underwhelming.

The suggestion is to give it a drop down like Greater Arson, but reduce the damage done on gains from specs and thieves (something like 50% of the current NS gains), as well as make it target army out, but for reduced damage.

This would give the op some viability and usefulness., like targeting huge soldier stockpiles or whoring wpa from razed mystic, as examples. Right now it is just a luxury op on shelled provinces, which brings very little to the table in order of kingdom tactics.

[plumrse]

my i add that numbers to be released on how this work... like is it 20% chance for either of the 5 and once you do convert something what is the % range... i hate randomness

i support idea but still would like to know the chance and % span for each conversion

[smercjd]

ewwww no...please don't do this
I like propaganda the way it is now better than this.

I do agree that there should be a bit more controlled randomness to it...but that's it.

[plumrse]

im fine either way if you know what you are going for or not.... all i want is to know what i can expect in numbers

[Araqiel]

ewwww no...please don't do this
I like propaganda the way it is now better than this.

I do agree that there should be a bit more controlled randomness to it...but that's it.

How do you propose we could control the randomness?

[zaza945]

If sometimes it's ridiculously strong and sometimes it's very weak, doesn't that mean it's balanced? I like it how it is, it makes choosing when, who, and how much to prop a big decision rather than spamming "prop d specs" ect.

If anything should be changed about prop id support making prop a hostile op and not war only, maybe make AW war only, but making prop a hostile op could provide a counter for some hostile strategies.

[Bukharistan]

Prop is good, I love the randomness. It's like MV for mages. If you want guaranteed success there are other ops to achieve that.

[smercjd]

How do you propose we could control the randomness?

Here's what I had proposed for it previously...

http://forums.utopia-game.com/showth...rsonality-More

Thievery

Buff Propaganda?s Randomness to trend towards available troops based on TPA difference.
Ex 1: Rogue w 20mTPA Prop on Guy with 5mTPA (0 Soldiers, 0 Specialists, 10K Elites, 5K Wizards, 5K Thieves) -- 20% Chance for each category
Ex 2: Rogue w 40mTPA Prop on Guy on the same guy 10% Chance for Soldiers/Specialists, 40% Chance for Elites, 20% Chance for Wizards, 20% Chance for Thieves

Buff Arson to (unsure of what it is now?but about 50% to 100% of whatever that is)

Buff Greater Arson to less random and up to +10% of max (from 6%)

Buff Kidnap by 10%

Buff Night-Strike by 10%

Buff Assassinate Wizards per thief to .014 (from .007) - same cap

New Sabotage: Sabotage Science -20% Science Effectiveness (Slightly more difficult than Riots but similar duration to Riots)

EDIT: The reason for not changing the values (amount of specs when landing it, etc) - is that it's 1 - still random (usually you can still NS more specs than you would get from prop) and 2 - it requires a LARGE amount of raw thieves. In order to make prop effective you have to somewhat sacrifice military and other things to really succeed at prop. [I think it's worth it, but many don't]. You also need to run high TDs to ensure less loss of thieves since you're sending all thieves each time. In running high TDs, you usually end up with equal or more thieves if you choose your targets carefully.

EDIT2: Most people seemed against buffing thievery in general. I think that if nothing gets buffed from thievery -- arson/GA should. They are just too weak. But I would like to see prop improved if not necessarily "buffed"

[TommyB]

How do you propose we could control the randomness?

Numbers. Big, massive numbers of propaganda ops at once. You'll arrive somewhere close to average gains if the number of ops is big enough.

Propaganda isn't something you do casually. It's either all or nothing. And if you're going for it make sure to run something like 25% dens as they're going to be your most important building.

[smercjd]

If sometimes it's ridiculously strong and sometimes it's very weak, doesn't that mean it's balanced? I like it how it is, it makes choosing when, who, and how much to prop a big decision rather than spamming "prop d specs" ect.

If anything should be changed about prop id support making prop a hostile op and not war only, maybe make AW war only, but making prop a hostile op could provide a counter for some hostile strategies.

Now THIS I would really love. Making prop available in UF/Hostile like MS. O M G...please please do that.

EDIT: This would be especially useful against what many newer players refer to as "bully" kingdoms that farm you. If they bring it to UF, you can prop/MS away.

[noobium]

Prop would be better if the mechanics of thief ops were better known. That way, rogues have a better sense of the odds involved, because it seems awfully streaky (likely due to using patriotism to block props).

Rogues have enough of an arsenal that they don't need prop, but it's a nice (if risky) win-more op. It is also possible to use prop alongside AW/NS, use the consistent ops to fulfill a quota of how much you want killed and propaganda with the rest.

[Bukharistan]

Prop is a situational op. Would never use it vs a full elite human/faery, but propping a full-spec elf who hasn't built enough WTs can be devastating if you send 7-8 raw tpa.

Giving higher odds for more thieves sent will make the op very UB, as there already is no cap on it. Just imagine a 60 tpa Halfer propping a 10 tpa Elf/Mystic getting a 40% chance to take specs.

[smercjd]

Prop is a situational op. Would never use it vs a full elite human/faery, but propping a full-spec elf who hasn't built enough WTs can be devastating if you send 7-8 raw tpa.

Giving higher odds for more thieves sent will make the op very UB, as there already is no cap on it. Just imagine a 60 tpa Halfer propping a 10 tpa Elf/Mystic getting a 40% chance to take specs.

Yes but a 60 tpa Halfer will have less military than a 20tpa halfer...potentially making him an easier chain target.

Like you say it's situational. And you can't just consider one or two provinces...you have to consider the whole kingdom. Sacrificing what you need to sacrifice to make prop more efficient might make everything else so terrible (or simply not as good)

[Bukharistan]

Any half-decent halfer/rogue can run 60 mTPA. About 6 rTPA by mid-age would be sufficient to get to that number. A halfer can choose to dedicate more to his TPA, running 70-80 mTPA if he wants, still running 90-100 dpa and decent wizz-def.

Anyways, my main point is that I don't see why an op that has been functioning satisfactorily for as long as I can remember should be changed. It has pro's and cons, it is used by certain people effectively in wars. I'd rather see us invest our suggestion-energies into more pressing issues that affect daily gameplay.

[chalsdk]

if anything, make that a wiz cant outright RAPE rogues, and keep their honor, while rogues just keep weak. Ether give more honor to rogues, or make them able to do more hits, reduces theif looses or whatever - current system makes rogues weak/meeh/bad

On topic, just prop only in 10/30% range, with army home.
End of story