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Thread: It is impossible to believe in Evolution and not be a racist

  1. #31
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    people would rather prove the point that they can be flagrantly wrong, as a demonstration of and appeal to naked power for the sake of power. the people who promote ID bull**** know it's bull**** and don't even hide it, but showing such a total lack of intellectual integrity and being praised for it is its own reward.
    You know I agree with that, but this is exactly why it sometimes doesn't strike me as mere stupidity and foolishness. Like maybe they really are nuts.

    Take for instance the following:
    -ID is utterly shameless. They know its wrong yet do not care that it is wrong.
    -its magical thinking, in that they believe there is a higher power, namely god
    -its arrogance, because they debase scientific evolution theories
    -its promotion of religion due to envy over science
    -they think they're entitled to be right, when in fact they're clearly not. Entitlement should come from prove and good arguments, yet they have neither to back up their case and yet despite of that lack they still think they're entitled to promote it. So much so that it must be tought in school, even when it obviously is nonsense.
    -they don't put boundaries on their theory of intelligent design
    -the ID'ers exploit politics to get what they want and feel like they need to be treated better than science.

    Add these seven parts up and what you get is called "narcissism".
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  2. #32
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    maybe for some adherents, it really is blind faith, but plenty of Christians have reconciled science and faith.
    for the people using it for politics, i doubt it's really a matter of a faith but a matter of principle - they want to make a statement that they can impose their will upon state policy, and the most effective way to do that is to spit in the face of intellectual integrity, make it their *****, and have it be accepted. they might know that they won't get to the point where their beliefs are held as commonly accepted truth, but they do force others to treat their blatant bull**** as valid and give it respect that it does not deserve. i highly doubt they really care what schools teach, or whether their particular indoctrination is perpetuated in the school system.
    it's a pretty clever tactic, too. you really can't reason with someone who chooses to state something flagrantly wrong with a straight face.

  3. #33
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    maybe for some adherents, it really is blind faith, but plenty of Christians have reconciled science and faith.
    for the people using it for politics, i doubt it's really a matter of a faith but a matter of principle - they want to make a statement that they can impose their will upon state policy, and the most effective way to do that is to spit in the face of intellectual integrity, make it their *****, and have it be accepted. they might know that they won't get to the point where their beliefs are held as commonly accepted truth, but they do force others to treat their blatant bull**** as valid and give it respect that it does not deserve. i highly doubt they really care what schools teach, or whether their particular indoctrination is perpetuated in the school system.
    it's a pretty clever tactic, too. you really can't reason with someone who chooses to state something flagrantly wrong with a straight face.
    true enough
    and yeah plenty do reconcile
    but as to some of these adherents, that is power politics without a reason.

    You can say one thing about machiavellianism, its powerplay, but not without a reason. There are 3 reasons one wishes powerplay:
    -wealth, to get rich, capital gain
    -to improve status situation
    -power for the sake of power

    They get no financial gain from this. It doesn't build their status, because like you said yourself they're not interested in perpeptuation. Now as to power for the sake of power. You only do that rationally if you can excercise it later to improve wealth or status. That doesn't seem to be the case here, unless their interest is in selling new schoolbooks. It kinda looks like it is for ego rather than prestige.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    true enough
    and yeah plenty do reconcile
    but as to some of these adherents, that is power politics without a reason.

    You can say one thing about machiavellianism, its powerplay, but not without a reason. There are 3 reasons one wishes powerplay:
    -wealth, to get rich, capital gain
    -to improve status situation
    -power for the sake of power

    They get no financial gain from this. It doesn't build their status, because like you said yourself they're not interested in perpeptuation. Now as to power for the sake of power. You only do that rationally if you can excercise it later to improve wealth or status. That doesn't seem to be the case here, unless their interest is in selling new schoolbooks. It kinda looks like it is for ego rather than prestige.
    It's more like saying, "we can say and do whatever we want with impunity". I read about torture methods, and such reality control measures are used to break down the torture victim.

  5. #35
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    It's more like saying, "we can say and do whatever we want with impunity". I read about torture methods, and such reality control measures are used to break down the torture victim.
    Then where is the torture?
    As to the flaunting of power. I do see a resemblance with ID and MNE (the course that the Chinese Communists want to introduce to Hong Kong) in that respect. So in my view it is definitely indoctrination. But again in both cases it neither improves wealth nor prestige. Far from it, both the leaders and the society as a whole is put to a disadvantage both in terms of wealth and prestige. Promoting such bad things is destructive to ones economy and makes ones society backwards and there is no prestige to be gained from being backwards.

    Now whether that's due to those adherent leaders being nuts or simply because its authoritarian that I don't know. Its very hard to tell anyway. Religions have a tendency to promote theocratic political systems and unlike democracies which tend to have a more humanistic background, those theocratic systems are inherently more authoritarian. So it becomes a bit of the chicken or the egg question. I am more of the assumption that it is insanity rather than an authoritarian background. Here is why. Maoism and Christian fundamentalism are two interely different political streams. Where as we look at the commonalities with the two progenitors there are plenty. Mao was beat up as a child by his father and was physically abused. As to Thaxton, emotional neglect during childhood is equally damaging.
    Last edited by freemehul; 18-10-2014 at 19:37.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiggis View Post
    It is impossible to believe in Macro Evolution and not be a racist.
    The idea that every animal on the planet is adapting and evolving to survive except humans is incredible.

    Unless the species is perfect then the differing abilities and shortcomings of each of the geographical and what we call "racial" divisions of the human animal must offer improved or degraded opportunities for survival as a whole both mental and physical.

    Thoughts?
    Depends how you "split" evolution. Ethnicity is an arbitrary point of separation (especially given that individuals across ethnicities can and do mate with each other).

    You could also classify by height, result in IQ tests and countless other criteria.

    I don't think all individuals are born equal (political correctness be damned), but I think winning combinations of genes/upbringing can be found across all ethnicities.

    If you take the range between best adapted and worst adapted amongst various ethnicities, you'll find a huge overlap.

    So, is ethnicity a completely useless predictor in determined how adapted someone will be for a particular task? Probably not if we are being 100% honest with ourselves (though let's realize that the line is blurry there concerning how much is genetics and how much is cultural differences and/or social bias in a multi-ethnic society), but is it one of the better predictors we can based ourselves on? Definitely not.

    I'd take a high scoring individual from any ethnicity that averages to below par on a given area over a random individual from an ethnicity that averages more highly. Really, ethnicity is a lazy/dumb person's predictor when sizing up someone.

    And lastly, like other posters indicated, overall adaptation is a not a scalar value, but a vector. Different inviduals can have complementary sets of adaptations that makes them more successful as a team and doesn't make one better than the other, but rather makes them complement each other well. Let's definitely resist the temptation of deitifying individuals who do very well at a given set of tasks. Society needs individuals that are well adapted to various tasks to fill various roles.
    Last edited by Magn; 19-10-2014 at 09:16.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiggis View Post
    It is impossible to believe in Macro Evolution and not be a racist.
    The idea that every animal on the planet is adapting and evolving to survive except humans is incredible.

    Thoughts?
    There are many problems with this statement. First, evolution occurs at the gene level. An individual gene will either be select for or selected against. Any of our race categories will have surviving genes that will be selected for and any of our race groups will have some genes that will eventually be selected against. Even if you assume that surviving is superior it does not indicate that any one race is superior. All races would have some superiority and some inferiority.

    Secondly, it is often not accurate to label a gene as increasing or decreasing survival. An example is blood type. Humans have A,B, and O blood type genes. Chimps also have A,B, and O blood types. If any one of the genes decreased survival it would have been selected against millions of years ago. Instead natural selection is selecting diversity. In some cases having a rare gene is a survival advantage. If you applied this to racism you would have to identify rare minority groups as superior because they are a minor group.

    Another problem is that a tendency to survive does not really mean superior in the way that racist people mean it to. Cockroaches are abundant and have survived for several hundred million years. Roaches can survive a lot of things humans cannot.

  8. #38
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    the gap in understanding is that the concept of race was a cultural construction long before biology was an actual science, and it didn't take long for some geniuses to ascribe pseudo-scientific rationales to justify their own place in the world's order (invariably at the top).

    it's amazing how much racist horse**** the general public believes in, that is tacitly approved by the media (despite the cries that the media is politically correct). it seems to be on the upswing lately, thanks to a general public that has surrendered its own power of critical thinking (speaking of people my age and younger, anyway).

    somewhere, the concept of political equality was lost - or actually, deliberately misrepresented, because the people today are essentially believers in fascism, through and through with no possibility of anything else.

  9. #39
    Forum Fanatic Elldallan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    They get no financial gain from this. It doesn't build their status, because like you said yourself they're not interested in perpeptuation. Now as to power for the sake of power. You only do that rationally if you can excercise it later to improve wealth or status. That doesn't seem to be the case here, unless their interest is in selling new schoolbooks. It kinda looks like it is for ego rather than prestige.
    No, it's because of power for the sake of power. Uneducated religious people are easier to control and since most of us hopefully live in a democracy they have to have control to perpetuate their power. Hence you spread ignorance because then you only need to bribe a priest to tell his congregation that it's "GOD's WILL" and off they go on a crusade.

    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    Then where is the torture?
    Torture is only neccessary when the reality manipulation fails. If you can convince the individual into believeing that resistance is hopeless and meaningless then you can make him tell you what you want without the torture. Besides, it's tricky to torture entire populations, it tends to elicit a response and a swift asskicking(at least if you get the attention of the west)
    But PSYOPS is very much a reality and these days it's pretty well developed. And the whole point of it is that you're not supposed to know it's being done to you, so if you can do it against a hostile poulace(which is much more difficult) why wouldn't you do it to your own population?
    Last edited by Elldallan; 02-11-2014 at 11:45.
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  10. #40
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    yeah but they have to be religious first. Not exactly true for a very large and growing proportion of society. I hate to be repetitive, but then it it boils down again to whoever founded such thinking is not employing it for rational reasons. So again they're either very stupid or very insane. Now I hate to think that a university trained man be that stupid, which leaves me to conclude that it is probably the latter. And if it were stupidity, then your argument about education being a great developer of society wouldn't hold much weight either. Well at least not when it comes to such cases. Of course one can always find exceptions to the rule I suppose.
    Last edited by freemehul; 05-11-2014 at 19:27.
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  11. #41
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    it's amazing how much racist horse**** the general public believes in, that is tacitly approved by the media (despite the cries that the media is politically correct). it seems to be on the upswing lately, thanks to a general public that has surrendered its own power of critical thinking (speaking of people my age and younger, anyway).
    I don't think that people have surrendered their thinking. It is just that they don't express it. This is the thing with the grey mass, they only move if they get pushed very hard. As to the media being politically correct, they obviously aren't, but that's not always due to their politics. A lot of journalists just aren't very knowledgeable about the content they report about. It's easy to understand why. They learn to report, they do not learn their content. If you put a journalist in a politology class, they'be taught rhetoric instead of politics. ;)

    The problem with learning to report about content without learning the content you report about is that this way you gain explicit knowledge, but not tacit knowledge. In other words on the subject they report about, a reporter is like a child not being able to ride a bike and tie his shoelaces. ;)
    Last edited by freemehul; 05-11-2014 at 19:51.
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  12. #42
    Forum Fanatic Elldallan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    yeah but they have to be religious first. Not exactly true for a very large and growing proportion of society. I hate to be repetitive, but then it it boils down again to whoever founded such thinking is not employing it for rational reasons. So again they're either very stupid or very insane. Now I hate to think that a university trained man be that stupid, which leaves me to conclude that it is probably the latter. And if it were stupidity, then your argument about education being a great developer of society wouldn't hold much weight either. Well at least not when it comes to such cases. Of course one can always find exceptions to the rule I suppose.
    Yes they have to be religious in the first place. Which is why ID is all busy deploying their religious dogma to elementary schools etc.
    So it's a quite long term investment but don't assume it's stupidity or insanity just because it doesn't have any immediate or short term benefits.

    Now as to why parents and school boards are allowing them to succeed with their scheme that's a better question. But I guess they're deploying it in the most religious areas first where people won't object, that way they can then push it further and further by saying "hey it's mainstream now, you're obliged to educate on it since it's a widely accepted "theory" now". I wouldn't say it's stupid, I'd say it's quite damn insidious.
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  13. #43
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    again there's no long term benefit. It doesn't build prestige and it doesn't build wealth. In fact it does the opposite.

    I do see the insidious way in which they spread their propaganda. I entirely agree with you on that. It's indeed the way they go about.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by freemehul View Post
    again there's no long term benefit. It doesn't build prestige and it doesn't build wealth. In fact it does the opposite.

    I do see the insidious way in which they spread their propaganda. I entirely agree with you on that. It's indeed the way they go about.
    I guess we have to agree to disagree on the first point then :P
    Because I think it's a very long term goal to consolidate and concentrate power and to build power structures to support their rule.
    It's the same thing we've seen in the middle east for centuries(and in the west during the dark ages), keep the population religious(or make them) and ignorant and you just need to control the clergy because the clergy controls the unwashed masses.
    Uneducated(or badly educated) superstitious people are easier to control, you just convince them that whatever you want is "GOD's" will.
    It may do the opposite of building wealth in general but it can still build wealth for the people doing it by giving them a much increased share of the smaller pie.

    And personally I think it's better to assume that they're acting with nefarious intent rather than insanity even if it turns out they weren't later because if you do the opposite and you're wrong they'll win because by the time people wise up it'll already be too late.
    Last edited by Elldallan; 15-11-2014 at 14:21.
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  15. #45
    Forum Fanatic freemehul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elldallan View Post
    I guess we have to agree to disagree on the first point then :P
    Because I think it's a very long term goal to consolidate and concentrate power and to build power structures to support their rule.
    It's the same thing we've seen in the middle east for centuries(and in the west during the dark ages), keep the population religious(or make them) and ignorant and you just need to control the clergy because the clergy controls the unwashed masses.
    Uneducated(or badly educated) superstitious people are easier to control, you just convince them that whatever you want is "GOD's" will.
    It may do the opposite of building wealth in general but it can still build wealth for the people doing it by giving them a much increased share of the smaller pie.

    And personally I think it's better to assume that they're acting with nefarious intent rather than insanity even if it turns out they weren't later because if you do the opposite and you're wrong they'll win because by the time people wise up it'll already be too late.


    yay for peasant kingdoms, maritime republics, and Frisian freedom ;)

    as to nefarious
    iniquitous often derives from insanity, frequently cluster B, particularly anti-social tendencies. And those tendencies are very destructive and so not building prestige and wealth. In fact quite the opposite. Said governments tend to have short lifespans.
    Last edited by freemehul; 15-11-2014 at 22:55.
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