Need more resonsebility from the top.. (Player base debate)

[StratOcastle]

@ mordon44 and no offense Palem. Palem is no strategic genius, but he knows the essential rule of violent resistance. I think we should all recognize where we are in the game on the courage scale. You must be honest with yourself.

I'm clueless to kingdom strategy, but this doesn't mean I'm bad...what I mean is, so many prescribe to fear driven tactics they don't recognize the game is tighter than it might appear; this includes bullies and their victims.

One thing I find odd is how so many players are my technical superiors, yet start from protection screwing themselves. Again, I have no math skills but I know what hurts. Strat the damn things in. Persain asked me why my Virtual Kingdom wasn't balanced and he suggested a build. Most wouldn't question such knowledge and I don't doubt Persains know how. My version of The Virtual Kingdom was based, in part, knowing what hurts a bottom feeder. I may know very little else, but I know what amnesia does. Fools gold, orcs trad marching, elves nightmaring, undead relay tapping. This isn't about winning war crowns, this is about sticking your boot up a bullies ass so far that when you wiggle your toes his eyes roll.

We already know bullies react like bullies so stop being cute about builds. Make big guns and use them. War kingdoms are generally as purpose built as tops. Do you ever study the race/persona chart and see what the opposite is? I do. It's not math, it's knowing where the majority of the weaknesses will be come crunch time. Static efficiency is predictable and it's the light of efficiency that attracts the bully.

Now to the asterisk:

For my part it's not hate. I'm more disappointed in a kingdom that cowers than a kingdom that bullies. That's not hate. It pulls my heartstrings to see some poor kingdom reacting in fear. It hurts to see a resisting kingdom still get smacked. All of it is playing the game. I'm not here to save anyone. The Virtual Kingdom template was designed for players like you; players who don't have enough bodies around them to poleax a bully.

What am I defending? The right to explore your pool and the right to retaliate those who want to take it from you. You might think I'm referring to tops. I'm not. If anything this age as a solo province I have grown even more respect for top kingdoms. The reason I would explore my pool is because in it's full realization the pool is ours. If we get excitement out of defending our right to grow we have war. Thus we have growth, thus we have war. We play the game fundamentally. We honor the game by exploring our pool. It's an integral gift.

Utopia has plenty of choices for focussed war and explore kingdoms. My feelings are that those in non-specific kingdom types need not be scattered. I for one think a non-specified organized kingdom could be a force. Imagine a world where players played what they wanted in a disciplined frame. It doesn't matter what your name is! < should be foremost as kingdom philosophy.

[Palem]

Palem's response explains why the mechanics are the way they are..stubborn folks who want things to stay the same so they can have THEIR fun while thousands of other players leave.. obviously too selfish in regards to the game to think about it properly, which the response proves.


The game is already a fluffy POS because of how many KDs land drop all day. If they didn't land drop all day, bad players would be out of range of them. But Bad players can't stay out of range of the Bushleague tier because THE BUSHLEAGUE TIER LAND DROPS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

So you don't want to make this game fluffy, yet you give artificial WW bonuses so that the War Spammers can better compete against those that properly pump in between. Oh your in the tier that spams war over and over again.. i wonder why you like those fluffy bonuses that make the game easier for you.

Basically, Palem just wants it to be the fluffy BS bastardization of Utopia that her prefers, and he has put on the blinders to the fact that the majority of past and current players disagree with him.

Sorry Palem, but im saying it out loud. YOU HAVE NO CLOTHES.

1. Those land dropping kingdoms suck. They are easily beatable if you decide to actually give a damn and learn how to improve. I haven't seen too many decent kingdoms actually land drop.
2. The WW bonuses can't even begin to compare to a kingdom that spent that time pumping. They're just bonuses for successfully winning your war. That being said, I don't give a **** about war win bonuses. Get rid of them for all I care. It won't stop the ****ty kingdoms from getting **** on and coming into the forums crying about how the game isn't fair.
3. The majority of past/current players are too fragile minded to accept the fact that there are kingdoms that are better they than are and the reason they're getting **** on is because they're being outplayed.

Well As I can join some well known kingdoms any secound I want to - if they have room, I hardly fit into this "claim and wow atityde your speaking of! There is alot of them yes, but most dont even reach the forums(or I just se them mostly).

Well, make the Game hard, or keep it hard, BUT in the very begining and at the optimal size of uto, there where things to reword peaple who did more then once a login a day (as 9/12 hours NOT logged on). - Make the game where there is flavor AND you care for the noobs, the trying and so on.

The whole point being raised is that bad kingdoms get beat up on by good kingdoms and those players get discouraged and leave. I do care for noobs, I want them to learn how to play better and break their terrible habits.

The answer to good kingdoms beating up on your kingdom to learn to play better so that you're a good kingdom. That's not the way people want it though. People are generally stubborn, lazy, and if their minimal efforts aren't met with immediate success then they're going to go elsewhere. Those kind of players will kill utopia, not save it.

[khronosschoty]

Maybe they should just make a section of the server below a certain NW and OFF, unable to touch those above it, and those above unable to touch below?

I personally do not see how this could be made but maybe someone could? Sounds very hard to impossible when I think about it.

[mordon44]

[QUOTE=Palem;15328348]1. Those land dropping kingdoms suck. They are easily beatable if you decide to actually give a damn and learn how to improve. I haven't seen too many decent kingdoms actually land drop.
2. The WW bonuses can't even begin to compare to a kingdom that spent that time pumping. They're just bonuses for successfully winning your war. That being said, I don't give a **** about war win bonuses. Get rid of them for all I care. It won't stop the ****ty kingdoms from getting **** on and coming into the forums crying about how the game isn't fair.
3. The majority of past/current players are too fragile minded to accept the fact that there are kingdoms that are better they than are and the reason they're getting **** on is because they're being outplayed.

1. Okay so most KDs ranked 20-40 suck, I got it. Frankly I agree because the majority play the game without purpose at this tier(sounds like you don't check papers very much - go ask the top KDs how many free acres they get from the Bushleague - your just flat out wrong.) The other thing here is that the KDs that don't land drop aren't bullies - they are out of the range of ghettos.

2. Agreed, but combined with land dropping over and over, they allow a kingdom to simulate being pumped before every war, while spamming war. They do it so they can war a ****ty KD, land drop, war a ****ty KD, land drop, war a ****ty KD, no Goal or purpose to the game whatsoever. Just beating up KDs they already know they are better than... super fun. You should have realized this was a problem a long time ago and designed these players out of the game so the game could regrow. Sometimes you need to cut off a limb so the body can live.

3. The problem is that newer people want to be able to compete with other players at their skill level after the dust settles at the start of the age. They can't do that because the mediocre players constantly land drop/never use pool so they are in range to pick on ****ty players. So basically you are telling people to get better, but creating an environment where they have 0 chance to do so.

Frankly Palem, it really sounds like your observational skills are lacking, and as usually, you are trying to misrepresent the arguments of others.

The problem with this game right now is that you have a Toxic Tier of KDs logically using terrible game mechanics. Instead of legitimizing this tier with this like 'the most warring' and WW bonuses, you should have designed them out of the game altogether.

The game isn't too hard or challenging for me, I can accept getting beat, as all I am doing is constantly looking to improve. I have however had to kick out about 10 good players that Log only 2-3 times a day because your game doesn't allow them to have any success in crunch time. Its just shortsighted and dumb on your part to design semi actives out of the game. The penalty for missing a 20 mins in war while being chained shouldn't be the absolute death of your province.

Most of us were reasonable enough to agree that its a sliding scale. All we are saying is that the scale is too far titled to hyper activity/aggressiveness then it needs to be, then you come in and act like we are asking for utopia to turn into Clash of Clans or Something. Your dishonesty constantly disgusts me.

Stop blaming weak minded players. The flaws of this game lie with weak minded developers and selfish/bad guidance from under qualified Mods.

For those of you saying a text base game can't survive today.. their are numerous browser base/text base games released online in the last few years with 100k+ players.. its not even close to a valid argument, its a cop out.

The fact that Palem said he wants this game to die before any substantial changes are made is, frankly, grounds to immediately remove him from a position of moderation for anyone who cares about the game.

[khronosschoty]

[QUOTE=mordon44;15328353]

1. Those land dropping kingdoms suck. They are easily beatable if you decide to actually give a damn and learn how to improve. I haven't seen too many decent kingdoms actually land drop.
2. The WW bonuses can't even begin to compare to a kingdom that spent that time pumping. They're just bonuses for successfully winning your war. That being said, I don't give a **** about war win bonuses. Get rid of them for all I care. It won't stop the ****ty kingdoms from getting **** on and coming into the forums crying about how the game isn't fair.
3. The majority of past/current players are too fragile minded to accept the fact that there are kingdoms that are better they than are and the reason they're getting **** on is because they're being outplayed.

1. Okay so most KDs ranked 20-40 suck, I got it. Frankly I agree because the majority play the game without purpose at this tier(sounds like you don't check papers very much - go ask the top KDs how many free acres they get from the Bushleague - your just flat out wrong.) The other thing here is that the KDs that don't land drop aren't bullies - they are out of the range of ghettos.

2. Agreed, but combined with land dropping over and over, they allow a kingdom to simulate being pumped before every war, while spamming war. They do it so they can war a ****ty KD, land drop, war a ****ty KD, land drop, war a ****ty KD, no Goal or purpose to the game whatsoever. Just beating up KDs they already know they are better than... super fun. You should have realized this was a problem a long time ago and designed these players out of the game so the game could regrow. Sometimes you need to cut off a limb so the body can live.

3. The problem is that newer people want to be able to compete with other players at their skill level after the dust settles at the start of the age. They can't do that because the mediocre players constantly land drop/never use pool so they are in range to pick on ****ty players. So basically you are telling people to get better, but creating an environment where they have 0 chance to do so.

Frankly Palem, it really sounds like your observational skills are lacking, and as usually, you are trying to misrepresent the arguments of others.

The problem with this game right now is that you have a Toxic Tier of KDs logically using terrible game mechanics. Instead of legitimizing this tier with this like 'the most warring' and WW bonuses, you should have designed them out of the game altogether.

The game isn't too hard or challenging for me, I can accept getting beat, as all I am doing is constantly looking to improve. I have however had to kick out about 10 good players that Log only 2-3 times a day because your game doesn't allow them to have any success in crunch time. Its just shortsighted and dumb on your part to design semi actives out of the game. The penalty for missing a 20 mins in war while being chained shouldn't be the absolute death of your province.

Most of us were reasonable enough to agree that its a sliding scale. All we are saying is that the scale is too far titled to hyper activity/aggressiveness then it needs to be, then you come in and act like we are asking for utopia to turn into Clash of Clans or Something. Your dishonesty constantly disgusts me.

Stop blaming weak minded players. The flaws of this game lie with weak minded developers and selfish/bad guidance from under qualified Mods.

For those of you saying a text base game can't survive today.. their are numerous browser base/text base games released online in the last few years with 100k+ players.. its not even close to a valid argument, its a cop out.

The fact that Palem said he wants this game to die before any substantial changes are made is, frankly, grounds to immediately remove him from a position of moderation for anyone who cares about the game.

I think all of the true things you said were grossly over exaggerated to useless; but, I appreciated reading it and when I automatically temper it, its full of good input.

[Alazne]

Not long ago I wrote in a thread that the game is much more harsh now than years ago, and lots could be said about this, but I was especially thinking at a kingdom level. Though getting all the 1:X kingdoms to only fight each other might help many kingdoms. Milkman, yours would not be in that league then. :D I can't understand your kingdom well, really, so I know the game is too complex, beyond my mind to find a good solution for the things I see around.


Many reasons for why it is harsh:

I have however had to kick out about 10 good players that Log only 2-3 times a day because your game doesn't allow them to have any success in crunch time.

It is true for a successful kingdom you would need to kill many provinces in most. And we also have all those ideas floating around the game…Like it is difficult to create a fun, welcoming atmosphere for new players. Well, I've just created a new province today and I've been asked to leave in 2 kingdoms already…before they even get to see if I am active and efficient or not.

[Squee311]

No they don't, hence the list with different types.

you said don't post without having a clue... Do you know what game mechanics means? When you do please come back and post until then don't post until you have a clue

[Zauper]

I pretty much can't ever understand what chalsdk posts.

Are there...suggestions? Is this a suggestion thread?

Do people not realize that Palem is not a game mod, only a forum moderator?

[Palem]

1. Okay so most KDs ranked 20-40 suck, I got it. Frankly I agree because the majority play the game without purpose at this tier(sounds like you don't check papers very much - go ask the top KDs how many free acres they get from the Bushleague - your just flat out wrong.) The other thing here is that the KDs that don't land drop aren't bullies - they are out of the range of ghettos.

Kingdoms ranked 20-40 don't land drop. But hey, let's assume they do land drop. By your logic they're land dropping into range of pretty decent kingdoms, not ghettos, so what's the problem?

2. Agreed, but combined with land dropping over and over, they allow a kingdom to simulate being pumped before every war, while spamming war. They do it so they can war a ****ty KD, land drop, war a ****ty KD, land drop, war a ****ty KD, no Goal or purpose to the game whatsoever. Just beating up KDs they already know they are better than... super fun. You should have realized this was a problem a long time ago and designed these players out of the game so the game could regrow. Sometimes you need to cut off a limb so the body can live.

Sounds like their goal is to win a lot of wars every age. Isn't that what your goal is? Should we cut you out too? I'm sure you aren't too prone to jumping head first into wars you're going to lose...

3. The problem is that newer people want to be able to compete with other players at their skill level after the dust settles at the start of the age. They can't do that because the mediocre players constantly land drop/never use pool so they are in range to pick on ****ty players. So basically you are telling people to get better, but creating an environment where they have 0 chance to do so.

Wrong. Every kingdom wants the same thing. They want to win. While there might not be a universal meaning to what exactly that means in utopia, everyone's got their own definition and they want to beat everyone else's ass on the road to victory. I love me a good tough war just as much as anyone else, but if I can go 6/6 in wars, warring terrible kingdoms that don't put up a fight, and finish #1 in land/nw/honor/ww, sign me up every single age.

Frankly Palem, it really sounds like your observational skills are lacking, and as usually, you are trying to misrepresent the arguments of others.

The problem with this game right now is that you have a Toxic Tier of KDs logically using terrible game mechanics. Instead of legitimizing this tier with this like 'the most warring' and WW bonuses, you should have designed them out of the game altogether.

If my observational skills are lacking, yours are nonexistent.

You say the majority of the game sides with you but that you think the warring chart is legitimizing the worst kingdoms in the game...yet somehow the VAST majority of the game (and by that I mean somewhere in the neighborhood of 90-95% of the game) spend every waking moment of utopia trying to win as many wars as they can and they want their efforts to be recognized.

The game isn't too hard or challenging for me, I can accept getting beat, as all I am doing is constantly looking to improve. I have however had to kick out about 10 good players that Log only 2-3 times a day because your game doesn't allow them to have any success in crunch time. Its just shortsighted and dumb on your part to design semi actives out of the game. The penalty for missing a 20 mins in war while being chained shouldn't be the absolute death of your province.

Kicking out good players isn't a good way to build your kingdom. You don't need to be hyperactive to be successful if you understand the mechanics well enough.

Most of us were reasonable enough to agree that its a sliding scale. All we are saying is that the scale is too far titled to hyper activity/aggressiveness then it needs to be, then you come in and act like we are asking for utopia to turn into Clash of Clans or Something. Your dishonesty constantly disgusts me.

You want a game where terrible play isn't greatly punished. I do not. I made that pretty clear.

Stop blaming weak minded players. The flaws of this game lie with weak minded developers and selfish/bad guidance from under qualified Mods.

Typical bad player argument. Game's fault you're not successful.

For those of you saying a text base game can't survive today.. their are numerous browser base/text base games released online in the last few years with 100k+ players.. its not even close to a valid argument, its a cop out.

Yea guys. Mafia wars is successful so there's no excuse why Utopia should be any different!
/sarcasm

The fact that Palem said he wants this game to die before any substantial changes are made is, frankly, grounds to immediately remove him from a position of moderation for anyone who cares about the game.

Blah blah blah, I'm entitled to my opinion regardless of what color my name is. I said I would rather have the game die before it's turned into a kindergarten version of Utopia where everyone gets gold stars and rainbow stickers for showing up. I've done more to help this game than you'll ever do.

Good day

@Zauper - no, they do not understand the distinction.

[StratOcastle]

I pretty much can't ever understand what chalsdk posts.

Are there...suggestions? Is this a suggestion thread?

Do people not realize that Palem is not a game mod, only a forum moderator?

As long as it's here it's a discussion thread. Chalsdk is covering some breadth in his OP which is fair. No one said posts have to be simple and direct. You're a gifted intellect so I expect you get the gist. Darn you. Ok, the rest of the post is for general consumption.

Palem is a forum moderator guys. In HRS his puter kept going down and he could barely do kingly business. He is no Agent Smith.

Chalsdks condemnation is more cultural and hints at some mechanical solutions. I think most of us agree top kingdom etiquette is on the high side. We see in Shinra how slippery the landscape can be. The exodus of the expectant, the migration of the talented.

I've railed on about embracing culture and challenge. I've offered solutions. Ego is the biggest obstacle. I don't believe the game needs mechanical changes, we need to work together. I for one am standing pretty alone and while it may not inspire bravery I think y'all should know:

My mechanics are pathetic to non-existent.
My recent kingdom partner can vouch that I'm a dumbass.
There is no way I shouldn't be bullied given my kingdom population of 2.
The fact remains I'm here and I'm big enough to be interesting to top 5 kingdoms for acres.
Chalsdk is correct in where the pressure comes from. Focus on asshats that are good at wolf pack synergy.
My solution is The Virtual Kingdom template that unites small kingdom cores to build one.
I don't want to run the damn thing, I offer it as an alternative to RKing new players.
We should be placing new players where they can grow in skill, not killing them.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Finally, every time I post my status to prove that bravery rocks I get attacked.

* this sacrificial post is brought to you by StratO.

[mordon44]

Kingdoms ranked 20-40 don't land drop. But hey, let's assume they do land drop. By your logic they're land dropping into range of pretty decent kingdoms, not ghettos, so what's the problem?

I have news from 3 KDs in lats week getting ready for war that says otherwise. So thats 15% of them doing it in one week... So its not all of them, all the time, its some of them, some of the time, and you obviously miss it or are just being your typical kill any attempt to save utopia self.
The point is not that they are land dropping into range of decent KDs, the point is KDs in all ranges land drop into the range of KDs they are better than on purpose.

Sounds like their goal is to win a lot of wars every age. Isn't that what your goal is? Should we cut you out too? I'm sure you aren't too prone to jumping head first into wars you're going to lose...

Nope, that's not my goal, obviously. Winning a bunch of wars is pretty pointless.. I don't like sandbox games like the bushleague KDs. My goal is to eventually galvanize and build up the proper overall KD skill set to play the game for real, AKA to become as strong as you possibly can and compete for crowns. I understand that we have to learn and improve for a while. I'm happy to do that, its quite fun. At least, the strategic challenge is super fun - having to kick out players who can't always be at a computer in war times is not. And before you bring up the honor crown, YOU NEED TO WAR GOOD KDS WITH GOOD HONOR TO GET IN - its a meaningful and relevant goal - warring a bunch of sisters of the poor is not.

Wrong. Every kingdom wants the same thing. They want to win. While there might not be a universal meaning to what exactly that means in utopia, everyone's got their own definition and they want to beat everyone else's ass on the road to victory. I love me a good tough war just as much as anyone else, but if I can go 6/6 in wars, warring terrible kingdoms that don't put up a fight, and finish #1 in land/nw/honor/ww, sign me up every single age.

The reason we don't have a universal meaning to what winning is anymore is because of things like WW records/charts. The goal used to be clear - to get as big and powerful as you can. You won't win an age if you spend the majority of it warring Bad KD that have nothing to take.. thats the problem, people are content to war bad KDs that have nothing to take because they arn't trying to win/ aren't playing the game for its original purpose (and get stupid free bonuses anyways). It is the design the game has taken in the last several years that has confused what winning means. So basically you pointed out a giant flaw in the game the current team that you are a part of has created. WE DIDN'T USE TO HAVE THIS PROBLEM.

If my observational skills are lacking, yours are nonexistent.

You say the majority of the game sides with you but that you think the warring chart is legitimizing the worst kingdoms in the game...yet somehow the VAST majority of the game (and by that I mean somewhere in the neighborhood of 90-95% of the game) spend every waking moment of utopia trying to win as many wars as they can and they want their efforts to be recognized.

The majority of people who come back and quickly quit side with me. The majority of people who have been playing for a while and quit side with me. The majority of people who look at utopia and decide they will never give it a chance side with me. The fact that you champion your 4k players as proof that the current design teams decisions are popular makes you BAT **** CRAZY.

And the fact that people try and win as many wars as possible as a goal is a bad KD attitude - its basically admitting you don't even want to try to compete with with the Best KDs in the game. Further reinforced by the BS lets fill provs to only 20 slots mechanic. The honor goal makes sense because you have to win and beat as many other KDs with good honor as possible. Using war to grow makes sense. WW for WW sake does not make sense. I could easily make the argument that these people who wants their WWs displayed are bad players who want to be recognized for non accomplishments, and they just want the game to be easier, but that would make me a dick, wouldn't it?

Kicking out good players isn't a good way to build your kingdom. You don't need to be hyperactive to be successful if you understand the mechanics well enough.

Sounds like someone who has never been in a successful KD before. Yes you do. If you army is home in the middle of a chain and you don't send it out, and the enemy KD catches it, your done. If that happens a couple of times in war, and not to the other KD, you as a group are probably done. The fact that you even try to argue this means you suck at UTO or are straight up lying.

You want a game where terrible play isn't greatly punished. I do not. I made that pretty clear.

Its the fact that you would rather see it die then reduce the harshness even somewhat that should offend every utopian.

Typical bad player argument. Game's fault you're not successful.

I took a brand new KD to the 20s in Land, NW, and WWs, so if im bad, 95% of your players are bad. You just ignore peoples arguments to make personnel attacks with no reasoning over and over and over again.

Yea guys. Mafia wars is successful so there's no excuse why Utopia should be any different!
/sarcasm

GTFO if you don't think the game can be sucesfull.

Blah blah blah, I'm entitled to my opinion regardless of what color my name is. I said I would rather have the game die before it's turned into a kindergarten version of Utopia where everyone gets gold stars and rainbow stickers for showing up. I've done more to help this game than you'll ever do.

You are an entitled to your opinion. I am entitled to point out that it has been helping kill the game for years.

I'd tell you to misrepresent more of what I said so that you can come up with a better counter reply then the last time, but I don't even think its possible.

[Meep]

So Palem if it's so easy for a smaller KD to fight back when being bullied, why did your KD leader threaten to emoquit the game, followed by you abandoning province to go make a prov in another KD when you were bullied by a bigger KD just a few weeks ago?

Seems like your own KD couldn't hack it, maybe you should set an example before being your usual pretentious yes clueless-about-the-game self.

[flogger]

Shots fired

[noobium]

the upper war tier is probably the worst to deal with, since they know how to be ruthless yet typically have no great ambitions. it's well known that those kingdoms have pacts with growth kingdoms, functioning as gatekeepers to attack the rabble if they stumble upon how to fight back.

there are times to fight back, but usually it's better to pick a fight that can be won, or exploit larger kingdoms that make mistakes and are not willing to commit too many hits. unfortunately, the game's loopholes give too many incentives to **** on people who aren't part of the incestuous community at the top of the game, and there isn't enough conflict between those growth kingdoms - too many incentives to play nice and suck up, and the people who would stand up to that clique have given up on the game.

[Folle]

chalsdk and mordon44 = the same person?