Undead Rogue?

[Suur]

I would love to war against Undead/Rogue(s). I´m Halfling/Rogue and we did eat another Halfing/Rogue last war. He was not very well pumped I must agree. But it seems it´s easier to prop a rogue than some TM who have WT in their build but much lower tpa because prop gains on Rogue are huge. So I would take long time to think about it first. A Halfling can destroy you with a single run.

[tetley]

Don't forget static homes are terrible
Don't let those angel numbers fool you
your pretend 85% BE will be 60 or worse within 48h

[noobium]

I would love to war against Undead/Rogue(s). I´m Halfling/Rogue and we did eat another Halfing/Rogue last war. He was not very well pumped I must agree. But it seems it´s easier to prop a rogue than some TM who have WT in their build but much lower tpa because prop gains on Rogue are huge. So I would take long time to think about it first. A Halfling can destroy you with a single run.

That's one reason why jamming lots of tpa on a vulnerable prov is a bad idea.

[Elit]

smercjd, thanks for your critical reply but my comments are honest. Utopia it not math game and most ppl cant understand it. We don't fight vs IA but vs other humans and you face nonstop subjective factors you cant include in your math. Its why build strategy based only on calculations is half effective.
Here is big difference from solo province play and KD setup.

I will keep it short: Undead/rogue is not good setup and its will fail most from time but in specific situation when you play in dark ghetto range and face bad opponents is can turn to good tactic too.

[smercjd]

smercjd, thanks for your critical reply but my comments are honest. Utopia it not math game and most ppl cant understand it. We don't fight vs IA but vs other humans and you face nonstop subjective factors you cant include in your math. Its why build strategy based only on calculations is half effective.
Here is big difference from solo province play and KD setup.

I will keep it short: Undead/rogue is not good setup and its will fail most from time but in specific situation when you play in dark ghetto range and face bad opponents is can turn to good tactic too.

Hey no problem :) My comments were honest, too. It just seemed like you were being way rude -- which is a human factor that most people don't understand. Very common when on the internet and you can't see people's faces. The "keep it short" is a very well balanced comment and very appreciated.

[Elit]

Hey no problem :) My comments were honest, too. It just seemed like you were being way rude -- which is a human factor that most people don't understand. Very common when on the internet and you can't see people's faces. The "keep it short" is a very well balanced comment and very appreciated.

You are wrong my friend :)

Every one from us was rude from his born, cry loud and not let his parents sleep and relax. No one hide his face during all this process! So being rude is habit we all are born :)

[trolltide]

Lots of hypotheticals thrown around here on possible scenarios.

For me, i would love it if I had UD rogue attackers in my kd. It adds a lot of versatility and new strategies that I can use that I couldn't before.

Played this combo a couple ages ago, and it works very well when you start close to the middle of the kd in size.

-You won't be a chain target right away (and if you are, that means guys with higher offenses get more hits in, which I wouldn't mind at all)
- You get 2 ops per tick to actually do some damage/steal and can actually get through the other kd's attackers fairly easily with a 3rtpa and all your boosts. You might say would be hard to do good ops with 3rtpa because other guys have theif protection. In 10+ wars the past couple ages, I have yet to go up against a kd where EVERYONE had good theif protection, so not having it is more the norm accross utopia.
- Losing thieves is not a huge deal while you op. If you are smart about the ops you do and send only what you need to, you can really mitigate the losses. Especially with the double td bonus this age, it's even less of a problem. Shouldn't have problem finding easy prop targets to refill losses.

This age UD/rogue is way stronger. That double TD bonus lets you keep going a lot longer. I never trained thieves in most occasions DURING war before, so losing that 50% thief cost is not an issue for me.

A couple things guys mentioned as negatives:

- A halfer/rogue propping you for theives - Well guess what, I have 100opa (probably can get more with ability to train elites now) and can just chain you down with help of a couple others and make you useless you halfer rogue. So enjoy overpopping yourself with my thieves that you have a 1/5 chance of getting.

- BE dropping below 85% because you decide to FB - You are in a way FB'ing your own KD mates as it's pretty easy to just kidnap those peasants back. Townwatch also is a great help to prevent the chaining issues that keeping full peasants might present otherwise.

- Playing A/m hybrids are better because you can still use your mages when you get chained - UD/rogues can use their mages when they get chained too?? and can run that mwpa pretty high during chain in the same situation, so where is the advantage here? Having he ability to steal runes to LL would be really nice to have though...

Discussion always ends up with - your personality is useless when you get chained or bloat etc.

Running UD rogues in the MIDDLE of the kd helps prevent the chains, they do more damage than any other personality on opposing attackers. They can still have 100opa or above. If they get chained: Can handle it fairly well with townwatch/wizard release/offense release (drake)/then thief release, would need to be deep chained for the chain to be effective. As far as bloating, other kd's have guys that bloat too which make for great prop targets to our ud rogues that are bloating.

Having 10+ A/Ts at the start of a war with 100opa is a great tool to have strategy wise. You are inherently resistant to theives (except for the super theives), can rain that NS down adding the ability to chain more targets than you would otherwise. Why should it be relegated to a solo prov in a ghetto? In my opinion, it's a great combo for the active warring kds.

It really depends on the activity of player with playing this combo - an active player can play it really well whereas a guy that can only log in for a few minutes for twice a day during war will not. Good kd's tend to have more of the former type guys.

A UD rogue vs other personalities - I would rather have a guy that is attacking twice a day with 100 opa and able to do 48 solid ops a day than a guy attacking twice a day with 120 opa and just has access to intel... It's a no brainer in my view as long as the player is active and receptive to learning. Those mods the other personalities can provide (extra general, faster speed etc.) doesn't compare to having access to all the ops and being able to play a supporting role thief on the undead.

[trolltide]

I would love to war against Undead/Rogue(s). I´m Halfling/Rogue and we did eat another Halfing/Rogue last war. He was not very well pumped I must agree. But it seems it´s easier to prop a rogue than some TM who have WT in their build but much lower tpa because prop gains on Rogue are huge. So I would take long time to think about it first. A Halfling can destroy you with a single run.

Prop is 1/5 for thieves. And when you are done, you likely haven't made a dent in the offense which likely remains at 90+ opa, I would hardly call it a destruction of a prov. Say a solid prop run cuts the rtpa from 3 to 1.5 (being very generous here). That UD rogue can still get intel and do minor ops (possible prop still viable vs provs with no WTs) while still participating as a heavy attacker at close to 100 opa.

That attacker likely has armies out making hits on chain target. You on the other hand are primarily a pure thief and just used up your stealth on a mid-sized attacker to weaken his secondary role. Would also like to add that it's pretty much based on luck. I have had runs where I had 4/10 thieves on prop and runs where it was 0/10 theives on prop with a lot of 0 solds, 0 elites, low wizards. It's totally random.

So hypothetically, yes, you could weaken the secondary role of an attacker with a solid prop run. Destroy? Hardly.

[noobium]

Prop is ridiculously good just because of its high cap. It's good enough that you can absorb 20-40% of your ops landing on something you don't care about, like soldiers, over enough ops. So yeah, it's quite possible to use prop to wreck an attacker, especially those that rely on defense or tpa. Whether it's worthwhile compared to propping a t/m or elf, or AW, or some other thief op, is another matter.

If I can get a UD/Rogue to donate free thieves, specs, and wizzies to my t/m, hells yeah i'd take that.

Elit has it right, UD/Rogue is generally pretty bad.

[Suur]

Prop is nice against provinces that use only def spec like Undeads. Propaganda on rogues hit up to 10% of their total thieves per op. Dspecs between 7-10% of total per op. I would say it is pretty much "destroyng" if you say you do not care about thieves then at least your defense will be wiped out in no time and will be doing Dragon slaying for your enemy KD.
Only reason you could get away with it is that you chose your war targets very carefully and/or many do not know how to use propaganda.

[trolltide]

Prop is ridiculously good just because of its high cap. It's good enough that you can absorb 20-40% of your ops landing on something you don't care about, like soldiers, over enough ops. So yeah, it's quite possible to use prop to wreck an attacker, especially those that rely on defense or tpa. Whether it's worthwhile compared to propping a t/m or elf, or AW, or some other thief op, is another matter.

If I can get a UD/Rogue (Anybody) to donate free thieves, specs, and wizzies to my t/m, hells yeah i'd take that.

Elit has it right, UD/Rogue (Everybody?) is generally pretty bad.

Prop is nice against provinces that use only def spec like Undeads. Propaganda on rogues hit up to 10% of their total thieves per op. Dspecs between 7-10% of total per op. I would say it is pretty much "destroyng" if you say you do not care about thieves then at least your defense will be wiped out in no time and will be doing Dragon slaying for your enemy KD.
Only reason you could get away with it is that you chose your war targets very carefully and/or many do not know how to use propaganda.

Wow Prop is so amazing. Guess who also access to that same prop? That's right, the UD rogue. If a pure thief spends their stealth trying to prop a mid-sized a/t, either the war is pretty much over by that point or you are ignoring bigger threats. A UD rogue has no place in a growth kd, but a warring kd/ghetto/solo prov greatly benefits from the added versatility.

Also never got propped once an entire age playing UD rogue - in about 5 wars, faced plenty of pure thieves/top warring kds. Chained a couple times? Sure, but almost no thief ops against. Limited sample size, sure. But it just doesn't happen often.

[Suur]

It does not happen because people do not know how to use prop as I mentioned but certainly not because it is not worth it. I think we did win WW crown with Avian/Rogues or Undead/Rogues if I remember correctly.

[trolltide]

It does not happen because people do not know how to use prop as I mentioned but certainly not because it is not worth it. I think we did win WW crown with Avian/Rogues or Undead/Rogues if I remember correctly.

For all the reasons you mentioned, it does not happen because there are much better prop and high value targets than a UD-rogue for a pure thief to op in a typical kd set up. The usual targets are the mages and the big hitters closer to your nw.

I would rather have access to 10 attackers with 100 opa and 300+ thief ops between them than 10 pure hitters with 120 opa at the start of a war. Resource stealing, chain softening and dragon kill all become so much more efficient. And can achieve the same results in regards to chaining or lead to even better chains. Especially with double td bonus now, losses are so much lower than in the past.

If playing UD, I can't play any other personality than rogue because I can't deal with not having access to ops. And it's too easy to be a good supporting thief at 3rtpa and 15-20% TDs. Takes away a little from offense? Definitely, but the ability to op and op well far outweighs it. Might be a minority opinion, but if you have enough people wanting to try it, it's a force to deal with.

If going as the only UD rogue in a kd, I would advice to play very tactically. Maintain a little better opa/dpa ratio than the pure hitters, stay towards the middle as far as size is concerned, devote the WTs in your build to the TDs and add 5-10% to it to give you 15-20% TDs. Very nice thief sci boost with the +75% gives you a huge boost over the non-rogues out there along with double TD's. Most kd's won't chain you until atleast a third of the attackers ahead of you on the list are done. Gives you about a day and half of ability to do a lot of extra damage on the side and really help out your kd on top of attacking. And hitting lower in the chain order will keep you from bloating too much, and prop on the opposing attackers will let you fill out some of the acres you take.

[noobium]

part of being able to prop is having high tpa and defense to not be torn to shreds, something that is problematic for an undead/rogue.
it's usually more effective to just smash an undead/rogue rather than prop them.

basically, if you're picking undead/rogue as core, it's because you value access to ops over what other personalities offer, and want the traits of undead more than some other race's traits.
i'd rather just run orcs and get ops access, without being necessarily locked into it to be useful. orc traits are generally more useful than undead ones.

[Suur]

Yes, my first question would be who do you prop? The gains are based on how many thieves you send in numbers. Most attackers are running WT. If you are going to GA WT first it might actually work I think in case you cooperate very high level and do not waste stealth too much for your own needs. But still Im not sure the gains are good enough to be worth the sacrifices you have done.