On utopia: A call to arms

[flogger]

Yes, Emeriti was wrong in encouraging bour to aggressively try and secure his CF with BB. They were afraid and paranoid that you would farm him out. I admitted to Emeriti's role in what happened and I made a private and public apology for it.

Bour ingame messaged for a cf first to your leaders and the steward read the message and did not respond. Bour then ingame messaged the ~4 online players in BB asking them to please have a leader contact him urgently. These messages were also read and ignored. BB was sitting on in range land to farm Bour, but was on near 0 military. The fear (fed by the ignored cf requests) was that BB would continue ignoring him until after BB trained up and by then it would be too late for bour and he'd be farmed. This was the reason Bour made the mistake of razing BB and sending another message offering all razed land back plus interest for a cf. When BB said that it'd hinder their position vs Emeriti, Bour then offered BB to farm GC and a fake hostile to protect BB from Emeriti while BB trained up. Bour would have helped BB be in a better position vs Emeriti than without him if only BB would have agreed to give him the cf.

You rejected Bours initial offers but you later agreed to a deal with Bour and Bour gave you 2.8x the land back that he razed and agreed to your size caps so he couldn't grow too big or aim for the #1 prov again. Emeriti offered you land directly from Emeriti in addition to the 2.8x land that Bour gave you back. Emeriti also offered you adjustment of the cf deal you made with them and whatever other things BB felt would fully repair their position.

In short, you had a full apology (in private and public) and you had offers of full reparations from both Bour and Emeriti directly and there was simply no reason for you to do what you did instead.

You have told me in private that it was your goal to beat Absalom in an alliance war before you retired form the game. It's well known that you have planned to retire for a while now and it was no secret that you planned for this to be your last age. You also told me directly that from the moment you found out that Emeriti knew Bour that you were already set on an alliance war.

Flogger: "Our whole leadership chan shows our intention to dealbreak the second we knew it was bourreau"
Flogger: "We were going to cf becayse i cant draft early and kill (bour) at the same time"
ASF: "So my point is that if you knew who it was when you made the deal and you planned to deal break from the time you knew who it was, then you made the deal with the intention of breaking it"
Flogger: "Of course, 100% no Denial"
Flogger: "And when we had the logs i knew id win an awar"
Flogger: "Then i made the forum post of "q for emeriti'"

The reality is that yes, Emeriti messed up in advising a friend to force a cf with BB. But the reality is also that Emeriti apologized for it and offered their own land and other terms in addition to the 2.8x land back that Bour gave BB to ensure BB was not hurt by what happened. BB admits that they planned alliance war from the second they knew it was bour. It is clear that no amount of fairness or reasonable offers to fix the situation were acceptable since flogger knew he could win an awar against Emeriti which was the closest thing left to Absalom.

There is example after example of worse things happening in Utopia than a guy trying to force a cf and razing and immediately offering all land back for a cf. Your ally Pyro has been involved in many of them recently and so have you flogger in the past. Yet when these other kingdoms do things, it's rare for one to even apologize for it, let alone offer full generous reparations.

The point is you never made an apology or admitted any involvement at all until I posted proof otherwise. then you lied and denied more involvement until I provided more proof and then you apologized for that. Then you said you knew the guy but he did it on his own. Dorje himself said he didn't say for him to raze about 10 times in the forums. The entire damn thing was his idea.

I purposely provided proof in steps so I could catch you guys in about 5 steps of denials and then apologies to follow. So any denials or apologies you make at this point have been pretty much proven as worthless. We have had the logs for weeks, that's why we didn't post them right away, to specifically show that you'll only admit to whatever is proven otherwise and that your apologies are hollow.

[bombdigie]

Liar liar, pants on fire.

[Chrystal Palace]

zauper 6:15 PM
I don't love waving into eow?
Is it the example you want to set for acceptable play?I don't...



that right there.

[Verminator]

Bomb, now there's some improvement! You took the truth that ASF very likely does wear pants, then just twisted it a little bit by having them be on fire. A good departure from the norm for you, keep it up.

[flogger]

jdorje 6:17 PM
not really the example we want to set for acceptable play, no

leshrak 6:17 PM
they could be razed by 400a provs right now

jdorje 6:17 PM
if he's going to farm bour next
it's bour that should be razing them

leshrak 6:17 PM
slaps bour around a bit with a large trout

"Not the example we want to set for acceptable play, no. Lets have our friends do it."

Good lord. You retired once, retire again. Go away.

That's my #hottake

[Chrystal Palace]

zauper 6:15 PM
I don't love waving into eow?
Is it the example you want to set for acceptable play?I don't....

i know how to quote too!

edit: i quoted wrong :D

[AquaSeaFoam]

The point is you never made an apology or admitted any involvement at all until I posted proof otherwise. then you lied and denied more involvement until I provided more proof and then you apologized for that. Then you said you knew the guy but he did it on his own. Dorje himself said he didn't say for him to raze about 10 times in the forums. The entire damn thing was his idea.

I purposely provided proof in steps so I could catch you guys in about 5 steps of denials and then apologies to follow. So any denials or apologies you make at this point have been pretty much proven as worthless. We have had the logs for weeks, that's why we didn't post them right away, to specifically show that you'll only admit to whatever is proven otherwise and that your apologies are hollow.

No, I didn't do those things. When you respond to me and say "you" a lot, people might get the wrong idea. Yes, Emeriti denied knowing who he was when you asked leshrak if he knew who his loc was. While it's not how I'd have responded if asked, I have experienced that it is how a lot of others do respond when asked if they know locs early age. From the time you first contacted me, I told you what happened including that people in Emeriti suggested Bour could raze you to force a cf.

In the past when you farmed gc to a kingdom to help them 2v1 my kingdom into an active hostile/war (unprovoked), I confronted you about it. When you were confronted you directly lied about it and denied it completely. It was only after I brought out the logs completely proving it that you finally admitted to it and then apologized. Still you offered nothing in the way of compensation. This was when Absalom was still strong as well but yet I made no drama over your lies or your helping 2v1 us unprovoked. I didn't gb you when you refused any reparations. You are a hypocrite to overreact to Leshrak denying knowing a location YR0 when you have proven that you yourself will lie and deny your own dirty play as long as you think there is a chance you can get away with it.

The difference is that Emeriti offered full reparations from their own kingdom in addition to the 2.8x acres that bour gave back to BB for his mistake in addition to apologies both in private and in public.

As for dorje, he is at the heart of your concerns and as you pasted he said both:
"if he's going to farm bour next it's bour that should be razing them" and
"if we cf them, bour is dead and that is bad for us so if i were bour i'd go get the cf now with threats of postwar hitting if they refuse"

Neither of those were said to bour directly although bour was idle in the channel he said them. dorje had expected that threats of hitting would have been enough and he could get a cf with threats alone without actually doing it.

There's also a lot more logs you didn't mention:

<jdorje> i think there is no harm in threatening to hit into postwar with a kd that chooses to be superfat but will farm you once oow
<jdorje> postwar is op
<jdorje> but you should have given them more time to respond, or gotten their attention with a single raze or even a bounce
<bour> Yeah I agree

and there was:
<jdorje> by having only one ceasefire, and by having bour in our council channel, we automatically turn them into the biggest farms on the server
<jdorje> its a problem

Before the razes happened he said,
<jdorje> i think it's 50-50 now
<jdorje> we'll be stronger militarily, but they have a better spread and cleric bonus
<jdorje> i think we'd beat bb actually

There's more such things of course like:

<bour> I've been thinking about this since yesterday and I think it was a mistake to hit into eowcf. I always tried to upheld myself to the highest possible moral standards, except when people were complete ass. BB werent ass to us or to almost anyone in the game. Sadly, all they want is either to kill us or to war us. I'll probably delete my province in a couple of hours and altough it doesnt repair the damage done to BB, I feel it's the best decision to make at this moment.

The point is the same. Emeriti messed up in suggesting bour could force a cf by razing bb before they trained up. It wasn't suggested with the intention of helping Emeriti vs BB, it was suggested with the intention of preventing bour from getting farmed. Bour not getting farmed was good for Emeriti to prevent their competition from farming ahead of them and so that BB couldn't dodge them by going after Bour. Wanting Bour to get a cf wasn't wrong, but suggesting he could force one by razing if BB ignored him crossed the line. However, considering Bour gave back 2.8x the land he razed and Emeriti offered their own land too and whatever else you felt needed to fix your situation, there was simply no justification to deal break and gb Emeriti.

[flogger]

There's also more logs I have. I know when you were involved. You were rationalizing hitting into EoW well before yourself. (Well before I posted I knew it was bour in the forums). Realize I've said I'd CF for days now for you to simply post something I already have. Do it and I'll post mine and then we can talk.

When I texted you you might want to get on to do diplo and asked you specifically to go back and read your own logs so you couldn't feign ignorance, it was for a reason.

[Chrystal Palace]

hey ASF lady why you talk so much? you dont even play there. more zauper less dumdum people.


edit: also hell with eowcf and war and all the stoopidness. i will hit ya when i want to hit ya. stance be damned. also by saying hitting ya i mean no person specifically. just saying if it wasnt bour lady hitting BB it very well could have been me. it was dumb throwing up acres in eowcf. very stupid. i mean how stupid can you be knowing that there are what 5-6 fsu kingdoms out there wanting to do just that. i mean you might not be stupid but you didnt really think.

edit: i remember releasing def specs in eowcf and getting my ass chewed out because pyro was having razes done to them into their eowcf. and zauper didnt want that to happen to me. so the trend is there.

edit: in before palem gets sad for me calling someone stupid. it wasnt directed at a person but a thought concept or something

[flogger]

Also please keep your posts shorter.

[Chrystal Palace]

i like lady fights. scratch her eyes out!!! pull her hair! rip off her shirt! now her bra!!!!

mmmmmm boobies

[Leshrak]

You retired once, retire again. Go away.

Advocating for *any player*, much less one of the leaders of your main competition, to totally quit the dying game that we all love should never, ever be allowed by the community. Suggesting it is pretty goddamn douchey of you. Utopia needs more players, not fewer players.

This is why people should be messaging me on IRC about how they can help punish your slimy play.

[Crunch]

pretty damning evidence of jdorje and certainly leshrak encouraging their ghetto friend to hit into bb.. all the lies spewed by asf to cover it all up well no surprise there typical asf tactic to talk you to death... why is asf the mouth where are the liers aka leaders from emeritie.

[AquaSeaFoam]

There's also more logs I have. I know when you were involved. You were rationalizing hitting into EoW well before yourself. (Well before I posted I knew it was bour in the forums). Realize I've said I'd CF for days now for you to simply post something I already have. Do it and I'll post mine and then we can talk.

When I texted you you might want to get on to do diplo and asked you specifically to go back and read your own logs so you couldn't feign ignorance, it was for a reason.

I have no problem with discussing the ethics of a ghetto province trying to prevent them self getting farmed by trying to force a cf before the kingdom about to farm them is fully trained up. I have long been an advocate for being able to defend yourself by means that would normally not be acceptable for offensive purposes and I am not ashamed of that.

If you are so honest, why do you constantly change what you actually said? What you actually said was:

<flogger> you guys take some sort of punishment and we both share our logs
<AquaSeaFoam> we took some sort of punishment. did you forget you've been razing us into our war with your ally?
<flogger> I imagine punishment at this point as just being an acre restriction
<AquaSeaFoam> will you ahve one also?
<AquaSeaFoam> i mean deal breaking is far worse than anythign emeriti did
<AquaSeaFoam> so will you also be punished?
<flogger> as long as you think what we did was worse than what you did, there's not a CF to be had
<flogger> ya have to accept what you did was wrong and what we did was justified
<AquaSeaFoam> because if the acre restriction is emeriti's punishment for suggestng bour try and force cf with you, then surely your deal break and razing into war wasn't punishment and therefore yo should be punished for it

Now after you posted the logs you try and change it and claim that was all you wanted. It was me who asked to mutually post the full logs, but it was *you* who would not agree to post your private logs with Protector (since you have made it clear you and Protector are the only leaders in BB and that's where all the real business is discussed.)

[AquaSeaFoam]

Crunch,

If you actually read what I've been posting, you'd see that this is exactly I said happened from the start. There were no lies or coverups from me.