Noticing into EOWCF

[RiffArt]

Please read this first: this is a serious, purely academic question. Please limit replies to the abstract scenarios presented here and don't bring in anything that's actually happened recently or historically.

Let me start by saying I'm a ghetto-nub. I haven't played in the top, so forgive my ignorance of what may seem obvious to some.

In recent threads, many (noticeably not all) have said that noticing into EOWCF is sleazy/slimy/dishonorable/****play etc. even if there's nothing in a CF deal prohibiting this.

Question One What I don't understand is why this is an unwritten "rule/guideline/standard", or why some people think that it is an unwritten rule.

So long as you're not hitting into EOWCF, the kd that gets noticed still has a full 4 day EOWCF and should be able to prep in that time. The downsides I can see for a kd being noticed in EOWCF are:
1. It's more difficult to avoid the war (you can't start one to avoid it unless you drop EOWCF)
2. You can't Fort to change build/train up
3. You've just come OOW and "only" have 4 days to get ready for another
4. You can't explore (well) in EOWCF

To my mind none of these is sufficient to justify people's reactions to notice into EOWCF:
1. The option to drop EOWCF, go fort, train up, and try to start a hostile is there. That's why the notice periods seem to be 48hrs minimum (usually more) - so you have time to react and prepare. If notice expires after EOWCF you can have full EOWCF, come out in fort to get builds in, and then try to find a war. Yes things are more difficult, but waging war isn't about making things easier for your opponents. Top kds seem to keep an eye on their CFs and what similar-size kds are doing too so notice should never be completely out of the blue.

2. You can come out of EOWCF with full fort protection, or drop EOWCF early to gain a beat on your opponent if there's still time on the notice. Plus, EOWCF has lower training costs. It's not as much as fort but is still there. If you come out in fort and your opponent does a full wave you can drop and wave back, so I don't see there's a huge problem here.

3. I don't see how the time period is relevant. Sure you only have 4 days between wars but this is enough to be ready, albeit maybe without a huge gc stack. But if the other kd has been stocking gc in anticipation anyway, any extra time they give you still leaves you behind in gc.

4. I guess one response to a notice would be to immediately explore up to gain an advantage over your opponents. This is harder in EOWCF. Again you have the option to drop EOWCF, go Normal to explore then Fort. And maybe I'm showing my lack of experience here, but is 48/72 hrs really sufficient time to explore up and make those acres useful? (3 hrs minimum to get mills in, 24 hrs to explore, swap mills out, build up acres, grow pezzies, draft and train... sounds tough to me)

Question Two: is there a difference between noticing into EOWCF if that notice expires after EOWCF? e.g. giving 72 hours notice when there's 24 hours of EOWCF remaining vs. giving 72 hours notice as soon as EOWCF begins (but still not hitting into the EOWCF)

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but a discussion. I am looking for considered, non-partisan responses to help me understand. There are many of these unwritten rules in the top that aren't obvious to people who have played in the ghetto, mainly because pretty much anything goes in the ghetto. I know, I was on the end of a fair bit of $hit last age from ghetto, warring AND top kds.

[neanderthal]

Timing on the notice would be important.

Ie. I have 96 hrs of eowcf and u want to start war in 6 days

Or I have 1 hour of eowcf left and you want to start war in 4 hours

But I would love to be given notice with prep time in eowcf.

[octobrev]

The only time that it isn't ok to notice into eowcf is if the terms of the agreement are that you can't notice into eowcf. Otherwise you can notice them the second they declare and, debatable, begin hits directly after withdraw into war the protection.

Example:
CF until year 7 with 72 hour notice. Cannot be delivered in hostile, war, or eowcf. Cannot be delivered when its raining in Portugal. Notice must be delivered in the form of a ruby dragon sent to the kingdom.

[topsy's revenge]

step 1) Go to their kd page
step 2) See if kd page says they are in war
step 3) If they are in war, then you shouldn't notice.

Noticing people in war defeats the whole purpose of notices.

[AquaSeaFoam]

topsy,
The whole purpose of notices is to allow you to run low draft while still having time to train up if a fight is expected, not for post war reasons. Post war is 4 days and you can have full fortified protection for another 2 days after that. 6 days is longer than the standard notice durations kingdoms use of between 2-4 days.

If you don't want your cf to end before you are ready, then you would be smart to negotiate longer cf terms in advance rather than just rely on your opponent being generous and helping you out to their own detriment when your cf is up and they have an advantage.

[Palem]

step 1) Go to their kd page
step 2) See if kd page says they are in war
step 3) If they are in war, then you shouldn't notice.

Noticing people in war defeats the whole purpose of notices.

Just so we're all on the same page, what is the whole purpose of notices and why is that purpose defeated by noticing into EoWCF?

From what I understand, notices are used to give the other kingdom notification that a fight is coming so that they have a reasonable chance to get trained up and defend themselves rather than just randomly getting gutted while their pants are down.

[octobrev]

*Ghost notices Palem and waves into his warstart, citing the historic "dibs" precedent*

Thanks for unlocking the album btw <3

[Palem]

We'd need to get a war first :p

[MyNameIsMatija]

We'd need to get a war first :p

Ask Emeriti, they like farmouts.

[RiffArt]

Ask Emeriti, they like farmouts.

I did ask people to please "[not] bring in anything that's actually happened recently or historically."

From what I understand, notices are used to give the other kingdom notification that a fight is coming so that they have a reasonable chance to get trained up and defend themselves rather than just randomly getting gutted while their pants are down.

This is a very succinct analysis. Can someone who thinks that noticing into EOWCF is wrong please explain how that means that said kd wouldn't have a reasonable chance to get ready?

[MyNameIsMatija]

Oh sorry lol, Uto threads are just not the same without that shiz :D

[topsy's revenge]

notices are so you can play assuming that you'd have some extra time if necessary to prep for war. For the last few years, big wars require far more time to prep than the 48 hours or so that is in an eowcf. If the person you need to war's cf is running out yr 10 then you are either warring(and thus prepping well before notice is given. likely 7-10 days before) or extending cf. The main use for it instead has been that then you don't have to fight wars b2b directly oow and instead have longer to prep. If eowcf isn't war, then why can't I just wave you into it? If it's a 48 hour notice can i notice you when you win/lose and just wave you 48 hours later? EOWCF is a part of war(thus why it says it on kd page). I think attacking/actioning into war should be heavily frowned down upon.

[Palem]

If you need more time to prep then you should agree to longer notices. That's like agreeing to a 2 hour notice, then complaining when someone serves you a 2 hour notice because it's not enough time to get trained up. Yes, you're right, but you agreed to the deal.

Also, just because someone doesn't consider EoWCF the same as War, doesn't mean you have to consider EoWCF the same as normal stance. Anyone's that's played can see the difference between being in an active engagement in war and being in recovery mode in EoWCF and can also see why hitting into either is lame for completely different, but equally valid reasons.

[StratOcastle]

You don't need more time to prepare, tops prefer to see their wars fought at full capacity; I get that.

Noticing is a top curtesy to essentially prove the better meta. We had this vacuum approach in D&D, and it was an active category on the D&D forum.

By comparison, in my group, we forbade all supplements not directly published by the corporation and a few others that we're unrelated for various reasons. The fact is we had much more practical capability that was within natural control mechanisms of the DM. the complexity of the characters and the manner in which we interacted was every bit as complex as Utopia meta. I've simple chosen to travel Lo-Fi in Utopia because I find the game more charming and playable in it's raw form. I only use general knowledge and never delve into deeper mechanics or use sims.

*The rest of us should ignore noticing, but not out of disrespect. It's that the noticing is a meta based etiquette; even if it's foundations were in the pageantry of war. The fact is that noticing has devolved into meta gaming and the pageantry isn't even mentioned in jest.

[AquaSeaFoam]

notices are so you can play assuming that you'd have some extra time if necessary to prep for war. For the last few years, big wars require far more time to prep than the 48 hours or so that is in an eowcf. If the person you need to war's cf is running out yr 10 then you are either warring(and thus prepping well before notice is given. likely 7-10 days before) or extending cf. The main use for it instead has been that then you don't have to fight wars b2b directly oow and instead have longer to prep. If eowcf isn't war, then why can't I just wave you into it? If it's a 48 hour notice can i notice you when you win/lose and just wave you 48 hours later? EOWCF is a part of war(thus why it says it on kd page). I think attacking/actioning into war should be heavily frowned down upon.

topsy,
Notice to end a cf deal and waving aren't the same thing. It's fine to not have a cf with a kingdom who happens to be in a war or a hostile. There is nothing wrong with not having formal cf terms with kingdoms at all regardless of what the other kingdoms are doing. Waving a kingdom into an active fight is generally considered wrong whether you have any cf deal or not, but there is nothing wrong with not having a cf deal or ending a cf deal whenever the terms of the deal allow you to do so.

If 48h notice isn't enough notice, then negotiate 96h notice (it's becoming more common these days). If 96h notice still isn't enough, then you can go for 1 week notice if that's how you roll. If you just want to have extra time after a war, then negotiate that. Hostiles that don't go to war pose a bigger problems than war though since there is no "post hostile protection" while war has built in post war protection for four days. Getting 48h notice after a rough hostile is likely a lot worse than getting it even immediately after a war during post war.