Regarding Jerks v Crazies

[Palem]

Please don't post locations or quote posts with locations in them (or at least remove the location from the quote so I don't have to)

[Sarge]

TL;DR: I admit that some of the things Jerks did during this conflict with crazies were not cool or good for the game. We felt forced and trapped, and because of game mechanics and other things, felt that it was necessary to do what we did in order to be fair. But this does not entirely excuse our behavior.

Mad props and kudos to Tetley. I'm surprised this came out, to be honest. In a good way. Thanks, Tetley, this was a cool thing to do. I'm glad we're able to end this conflict in a reasonable manner.

[Spookies]

It all started with cRazies double hostiled Jerks.
I TOTALLY understand that Jerks became Jerks
when being double hostiled from cJ & co.

[Zauper]

You can not seriously invoke that. if you look at expendibles and crazies and compare then that`s like sky and land... expendibles turtled all age having 1/1 wars, cfing all kd`s to be sure they stay on the same flat line. on the other hand crazies went 4/4 wars and a hostile that lasted around 2 days with hits in and out. and they still catched up a little bit.

It seems silly to deny that expendables have some good provinces. No one denies that. However... They do still have an average bpa under 500 on their orcs, with an average wpa under 2.5. When it was offered, those numbers were closer to 200 bpa and 1 wpa. You need to remember a lot of those 10k+ orcs are under 5 weeks old. How old are the provs in crazies? Have they had more pump time than provs running 60%+ unbuilt acres for 5 weeks to grow?

on the other hand i discovered something interesting... here goes

May 21 of YR12 We have cancelled our ceasefire with Rough Dragons (x:x)!

after this came a whole list of attacks... i`ll sum it up :

that`s 9140 acres that shifted from #1 honor kd (where there are some ex cr players) to #1 land kd... talking about a kd that said why crazies don`t go after them and war for #1 spot...

Both kds have done drops. The reality is we are better at growing oow than they are. Our provs can easily whore past 7-8k acres because we don't have sci or wpa or peasants or built land. And are orc, of course. And yes, we took a wave off ED, as they owed us for some stuff that happened earlier.

also forgot to mention that top provinces from expendibles have around 3k bpa which is more then top 3 from crazies

Yes, the top two.provs are stronger (though dw merchant sci is worth significantly less than human sage bpa for obvious reasons). At the time it was offered, crazies also had 3 20k provs vs 2 and a 16k.

And a significantly stronger core. And a setup that's designed to win wars (I.e. Clerics and warriors instead of merchants). And rogues. Were you aware that amnesia is very strong vs sci reliant sages?

It wouldn't have been a gift win, sure. But it would be a better (and more reasonable) shot that trying to outwhore.

[Sarge]

It all started with cRazies double hostiled Jerks.
I TOTALLY understand that Jerks became Jerks
when being double hostiled from cJ & co.

You've got to be kidding me. The hostile myth was debunked long ago. It wasn't a hostile, it was a one-sided farm-out for Jerks. The only double hostile Jerks experienced was when they decided to farm to Expendables, which has already been addressed. We told them we were coming, they dropped their trousers of their own accord, we acted accordingly and inserted roughly. Less QQ more mewtwo... go play some Pokemon if you can't handle Uto.

[Zauper]

You've got to be kidding me. The hostile myth was debunked long ago. It wasn't a hostile, it was a one-sided farm-out for Jerks. The only double hostile Jerks experienced was when they decided to farm to Expendables, which has already been addressed. We told them we were coming, they dropped their trousers of their own accord, we acted accordingly and inserted roughly. Less QQ more mewtwo... go play some Pokemon if you can't handle Uto.

It was a wave vs a kd in declare range.

Whereas you waved down on a kd half your size with their troops out in hostile.

[Sarge]

It was a wave vs a kd in declare range.

Whereas you waved down on a kd half your size with their troops out in hostile.

Come on Zauper, you know better than that. You're just trying to make yourself look better in the aftermath of the ****play. I don't blame you, bad publicity is bad for the kd. Facts are facts, Jerks was farming in an attempt to dodge us by claiming hostile and doing a poor job at it. People would have tried to make us look like the bad guys even if we waited. The fact is that Jerks knew we were coming. Running to a fake hostile doesn't change that. If they wanted to leave their pants down then why shouldn't we take advantage?

[Zauper]

Come on Zauper, you know better than that. You're just trying to make yourself look better in the aftermath of the ****play. I don't blame you, bad publicity is bad for the kd. Facts are facts, Jerks was farming in an attempt to dodge us by claiming hostile and doing a poor job at it. People would have tried to make us look like the bad guys even if we waited. The fact is that Jerks knew we were coming. Running to a fake hostile doesn't change that. If they wanted to leave their pants down then why shouldn't we take advantage?

What, exactly, about the hostile was fake?. That it was in range? You weren't in range, it's not hard to expect someone to prefer fighting in range over out.

That they knew you were coming? I believe your kd had no notice deal. You could have waved them at any time and did not. You can't expect them to sit around with their thumb up their ass because you want to fight, at some point in the future but haven't given notice or hit. You're still expected, reasonably, to stay out of conflicts. Even if you don't have a deal with them.

Waiting for troops home is the expected and appropriate play. If they started waving down significantly to try to dodge or stitching hostiles together, you might have an argument.

[Palem]

What, exactly, about the hostile was fake?

This seemed like a good enough explaination for me:

Jerks wasnt in a hostile when we waved. There were 0 retals/ops by Mythos, and a blank CF was offered for almost 12hours.

One side hitting another side and being met with absolutely no resistance isn't a hostile.

[Zauper]

This seemed like a good enough explaination for me:


One side hitting another side and being met with absolutely no resistance isn't a hostile.

When you wave someone and give them button, you are hostile.

If they don't retal and offer cf, you are still hostile.

Until troops return. Waving someone with troops out waving a second kd is doubling, however you spin it. 9 hours is not 12.

[Sarge]

What, exactly, about the hostile was fake?. That it was in range? You weren't in range, it's not hard to expect someone to prefer fighting in range over out.

That they knew you were coming? I believe your kd had no notice deal. You could have waved them at any time and did not. You can't expect them to sit around with their thumb up their ass because you want to fight, at some point in the future but haven't given notice or hit. You're still expected, reasonably, to stay out of conflicts. Even if you don't have a deal with them.

I'll spell it out for the readers, seeing as you want to act like you honestly don't know. 10 hits over a 12 hour period with 0 retaliations and a CF offered = fake hostile. Jerks wasn't in hostilities, and they certainly didn't wave like what you're trying to claim.

cJ posted logs on the negotiations, Tetley himself said he knew we were coming, and we flat out told them 5k for EOACF or wave. Go read the other thread more closely and you'll see all the proof you need.

Stop acting like Jerks are victims and stop trying to make yourself look good. It isn't working on either front. That's not to say that you've done anything heinously unethical. You've played the game well and deserve props for the progress you've made. It just doesn't sit right when you try to play the victim card on Jerks' behalf when everyone who's paid attention to this ordeal can clearly see what happened. Even Tetley admitted that their actions were questionable. It's better to remain silent and appear a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[Zauper]

I'll spell it out for the readers, seeing as you want to act like you honestly don't know. 10 hits over a 12 hour period with 0 retaliations and a CF offered = fake hostile. Jerks wasn't in hostilities, and they certainly didn't wave like what you're trying to claim.

cJ posted logs on the negotiations, Tetley himself said he knew we were coming, and we flat out told them 5k for EOACF or wave. Go read the other thread more closely and you'll see all the proof you need.

Stop acting like Jerks are victims and stop trying to make yourself look good. It isn't working on either front. That's not to say that you've done anything heinously unethical. You've played the game well and deserve props for the progress you've made. It just doesn't sit right when you try to play the victim card on Jerks' behalf when everyone who's paid attention to this ordeal can clearly see what happened. Even Tetley admitted that their actions were questionable. It's better to remain silent and appear a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

That they are dumb and should have given you land - or knew you would wave eventually - doesnt change the underlying facts.

And no, giving hostile without retals is not a fake hostile.

You are hostile until the bulk of your armies return home. That is how it has always worked. Sorry, you're wrong. You aren't going to change my mind on this. I actioned Absalom for it in the past when they disagreed. The only time any of my alliances ever had to action someone. You wave, you give the button, you're hostile until troops return.

If they're not in range to fight, if you're doubling, etc -- that can change things. They weren't doing that.

[Sarge]

That they are dumb and should have given you land - or knew you would wave eventually - doesnt change the underlying facts.

And no, giving hostile without retals is not a fake hostile.

You are hostile until the bulk of your armies return home. That is how it has always worked. Sorry, you're wrong. You aren't going to change my mind on this. I actioned Absalom for it in the past when they disagreed. The only time any of my alliances ever had to action someone. You wave, you give the button, you're hostile until troops return.

If they're not in range to fight, if you're doubling, etc -- that can change things. They weren't doing that.

I'm sure we could keep going back and forth on this all day, but let's face it. There was no wave. You say hostile until troops return. Others say hostile until the meter drops to unfriendly. Others say hostile is only hostile if both kingdoms are taking action against each other. Yet others can see that giving hostile to a kingdom that has no interest whatsoever in warring you doesn't mean squat, especially when they offer CF before meter reaches hostile.

Define it how you want. They were in a one-sided "conflict" that posed absolutely no danger to them whatsoever and they knew it. They also knew that they were walking a line with us. Add it together and it's really easy to see.

Also, we attacked the provinces with troops home, which there were quite a few. So it isn't the same as the Abs crap from days gone by. If it were a full wave and we waved shortly after they had troops out then it would be in the same league, but this ain't nowhere close. Jerks had the majority (bulk) of their troops home with most troops out returning within a couple ticks and troops home on top provinces. Cut it out, dude.

[Korp]

I'm sure we could keep going back and forth on this all day, but let's face it. There was no wave. You say hostile until troops return. Others say hostile until the meter drops to unfriendly. Others say hostile is only hostile if both kingdoms are taking action against each other. Yet others can see that giving hostile to a kingdom that has no interest whatsoever in warring you doesn't mean squat, especially when they offer CF before meter reaches hostile.

Define it how you want. They were in a one-sided "conflict" that posed absolutely no danger to them whatsoever and they knew it. They also knew that they were walking a line with us. Add it together and it's really easy to see.

Also, we attacked the provinces with troops home, which there were quite a few. So it isn't the same as the Abs crap from days gone by. If it were a full wave and we waved shortly after they had troops out then it would be in the same league, but this ain't nowhere close. Jerks had most troops returning within a couple ticks and troops home on top provinces. Cut it out, dude.

Why is your "definition" the one that Trumphs everyone elses? It seems that your only interest in it is to find a way to justify your actions.

[Spookies]

+1 Zauper

That's is how hostile rules works.

Too bad not all kd's honor that agreement.