You have to lookat other aspect. That any decent attacker can 2-3x Ork with army home and then 3-4 once army out. While it's 1 hit on human, later 2 hits. Now with def bonus away situation is better. Ork is great, but it's "One hit Wonder" race. You make nice hit and etc, then you got down super easy.Originally Posted by Zauper
I see invisibility as a compromise of losing the T/M combo they have this age and semi makes sense being it is an Elf thematically. (though Halflings should get it too)
I personally want to keep the dmg/duration bonuses that the Elves got this age.
If you didn't play an Elf this age, please don't say they were under powered. They were more than able to do what they need to do... in a way they are more powered or maybe even overpowered than they were last age. But it requires a different play style that everyone is so use to.
Just Faeries this age is very hard to crack in every way (attacks due to 5def elites, thief due to that % bonus and magic due to that % bonus)
Elf was good against attackers. Once war drags and it's TM war. Elf and halfer was food for faeries.
I don't think the Human counterpart is Orcs. Orcs and Undead is a good comparison but Humans should really be viewed side by side with Avian or Dwarves.
Even so Elves are on the bottom easily. Pretty unanimous they they just aren't keeping up.
IDK why everyone is saying Avian is strong, all i see are some very landfat provs. Perhaps instead of the big br bonus give them a big population bonus to make up for crappy elites and no stables. Also Humans having -20% gains is weird maybe give it to Avian at like -10%(landgrabs only) to slow down landfatness in wars. The warrior lost its extra general but why? Avian's should give that extra general back, keep in mind a big population boost to make up for it should be implemented. Take away +20% ome from humans and just make warrior +30% in wars.
War Hero still needs to be changed to something like +150% honor gains and -50% honor losses.
a T/M war the Elves have one more benefit than the Faries... being a good land bank with their DSpecs. Plus Elves should really be training up thieves to keep their thief ratio in balance in addition to their dspecs.
Elves main weakness is a FB chain, which faeries have the upper hand in breaking through... but it requires 2 mages to punch through enough to make a difference.
The faeries WPA bonus is semi-negated with the Magic Shield spell + Natures blessing and due to their large selection of spells which includes self spells. They don't have enough mana to do enough damage to an Elves pop unless they neglect their other duties.
In my experiences Elves tends to be avoided in ops being they are a pain to deal with and late war it is usually too late to op an Elf for much damage to make a difference. Elves have to be taken out at the beginning of the war when everyone is still in network range, and TPA/WPA is still good enough to take an Elf down.
Human "battle gains" are the same -gains that halfers had last age?
Overall:most of the options seems somewhat lackluster w/out any extra mechanics changes. The "big" things i see are
Humans cant tank anymore w/out going sage (defensive losses+cleric basically meant they could sit leets in for no risk) but as i dont like sage based kds if u aren't whoring so its like meh.
Cleric taking ANOTHER hit to losses doesn't really deter it as the preferred choice for core attackers....this is becuase
--Warrior is countered by fighting in hostile (Enhanced Conquest range is a 100% worthless bonus since attack times/gains STILL scale with nw outside of war). And while "needing to chain" the enemy may be important if u can pull the war to 4+ days your remaining mod off is greater on the cleric than the warrior assuming both started with the same number of leets (this effects chained targets, which if your plan is long wars really does matter because you've chained all the scary mod off, and should be able to NS down/shell any of the SUPER fat attackers that STARTED off small with high hospitals like this even mattered)
--While Tact is worthless since orc already has CS and simply "attacking faster" means nothing if you dont have the offensive sustain (while non orc tacts STILL wont attack fast enough to counter the +per hit gains an orc gets).
All this does it make pure t/m's a tad more important since offensive sustain drops a bit faster.
Otherwise i think between
And
most of my thoughts are spoken about. I will note though that
@Avain (and the contradicting statements) I think in the ghetto an avain will seem strong as they just smash smash, move acres over and FEEL overwhelming because everyone knows more acres=win right (/me rolls his eyes). However against any organized kd avains just dont have the numbers to compete at all given they also lead to burn out. You want them viable, remove +50% Birth Rate, Ambush Immunity, have them donate their spell-book to undeads for access to town watch and THEN make them immune to fireballs/kidnap. THAT makes them hard to deal with and worth the crappy military #'s/sustain.
That just means they don't know how to play as an Elf. It does not mean they cannot keep up mechnically, especially with the changes which takes prob 2 ages to adapt for the people who are noobs at playing Elves in general.
Any decent attacker can 3-4 tap a human with leets out. If your human is eating 1 hit fully army in, then turtling w/leets and geting 2 taped while he only managed to 3 tap an orc your failing in your roll as an attacker. Thing is
Since humans have a 8+/x army you want to compare it to orc for ability to run as a core. Sure you could compare it to dwarf but dwarf has the flexibility that +BE/free builds give while humans lost the flexibility ToG gave. (note avain is a speed atttacker, there's zero reason to examine it outside the "can i use it instead of orc" roll.)
RedPanda I play Elf often (this age and last, too) and I don't love it this age or with the changes. I agree that people are mistakenly viewing it as a simple "magic version of halfling" role instead of what it's built for, but I don't think it can thrive even in the role it's intended to fulfill.
Certainly some fun options with this setup for running an all elf kingdom, though.
Elf definitely caused more damage this age to attackers. Honestly opting other tms just steals honor and doesn't win wars. I love the changes but elfs are way to weak to even be considered if the changes stand.only thing they could run as is a rogue or a merchant.
I have played an Elf this age and last age too, no real difference in play style for me and I find that im playing better this age with the current ages bonuses and doing much much more damage than I was compared to last age (I have an a/t/m play style)
I would put it more say a offensive faerie than a halfling but the problem is that thieves and mages have a certain play style, which 99% of the time does not include attacking which Elves were built for. And even worse is that most kingdoms do not think in terms of dual but single purpose viewpoints.
But yea, an all Elf kingdom this age would had been perfect assuming the players has at least played an Elf at least once though an entire age. But sadly the changes isn't here to last past this age.
Also regardless of the changes of next age, more than likely we will not get back that -x troop losses which I find some people are too reliant on last age, that which served as too big of handicap now that we dont have it anymore
Things like -20% Sci, -20% Gains seem really harsh.
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Seconded.
Why are people talking about avians being bound to get land fat? Imho you aren't using the avian right if you think it will just get land fat.
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