The U (#4) v/s Settlers (#5)

[Pale]

I'm not sure how Emeriti ruined anything for you Chrystal. You guys already had an agreement with settlers previously. The only reason Settlers noticed you in the first place was to try to avoid Emeriti. Everyone watching the situation knew Settlers couldn't avoid Emeriti by noticing you. It could only happen through some sort of diplo. No agreement could be reached so they got waved. We all know things don't work in such a way that just because you notice someone and have intention to go fight them, you're safe from others around you. You had no right to that fight in the first place. And we all know settlers was in a position to be farmed by fighting either of the kingdoms they would have ended up fighting. Some people would rather it had been you getting the farming and not Emeriti. As many people know, I don't like Emeriti in the slightest, but they had every right to wave Settlers.

Concerning the "hostile" you're referring to that Emeriti "violated", there was no hostile at all. Settlers hit to 16 points right before a month change and offered war. Instant reply by opposing monarch to say no to war offer and within minutes a CF offer was extended. Because the kd they hit was in fort, they waited 16 or 17 hours to try to farm extra acres once they came out of fortified. The other kingdom never hit or op'd Settlers. Settlers had time to hit, get home, and send out again by the time Emeriti engaged them. In what world can you run from another kingdom by waving someone 20%+ smaller in nw than you, get a cf offer and do 2 uniques worth of hits and call it a hostile? I've always been led to believe that a button has to be involved for things to be hostile. Or at the very least, the kingdom you're hitting has to respond with hits or ops or have the intention to respond in some way. I don't understand the thinking that "I'm waving so and so and as long as I keep hitting them I'm safe from you.. na na na na boo boo you can't touch me..." What Emeriti and Settlers currently have where both kds are trading hits, ops, etc. That's a hostile. I was always told 12 hours after cf offer they're free to be waved because armies would be home by then. This is, of course, debated by multiple groups as to how long you have to wait or if you have to wait for cf to be accepted. Often I think people will just answer in such a way that is convenient for them at the time.

Oh, and if Settlers doesn't want people waving them when they are waving or being waved, maybe they shouldn't hit into kingdoms who are getting waved already. They threw 3 hits in on the kd they later waved to try to dodge Emeriti while at the same time that kingdom was already being waved by CR. They ignored a message about it, and hit in some more later as well. If they are not willing to respect someone when they are waving or getting waved, then why should anyone show them the same courtesy?

[asdfghy]

Cuz they are all dirty ---- bring in the propaganda machines!

[StratOcastle]

This thread is a big legged woman. Let's not disappoint her.

More numbers please.
More what's going on please.
More slick diplo please.

Thx guys.

[Meep]

I'm not sure how Emeriti ruined anything for you Chrystal. You guys already had an agreement with settlers previously. The only reason Settlers noticed you in the first place was to try to avoid Emeriti. Everyone watching the situation knew Settlers couldn't avoid Emeriti by noticing you. It could only happen through some sort of diplo. No agreement could be reached so they got waved. We all know things don't work in such a way that just because you notice someone and have intention to go fight them, you're safe from others around you. You had no right to that fight in the first place. And we all know settlers was in a position to be farmed by fighting either of the kingdoms they would have ended up fighting. Some people would rather it had been you getting the farming and not Emeriti. As many people know, I don't like Emeriti in the slightest, but they had every right to wave Settlers.

Concerning the "hostile" you're referring to that Emeriti "violated", there was no hostile at all. Settlers hit to 16 points right before a month change and offered war. Instant reply by opposing monarch to say no to war offer and within minutes a CF offer was extended. Because the kd they hit was in fort, they waited 16 or 17 hours to try to farm extra acres once they came out of fortified. The other kingdom never hit or op'd Settlers. Settlers had time to hit, get home, and send out again by the time Emeriti engaged them. In what world can you run from another kingdom by waving someone 20%+ smaller in nw than you, get a cf offer and do 2 uniques worth of hits and call it a hostile? I've always been led to believe that a button has to be involved for things to be hostile. Or at the very least, the kingdom you're hitting has to respond with hits or ops or have the intention to respond in some way. I don't understand the thinking that "I'm waving so and so and as long as I keep hitting them I'm safe from you.. na na na na boo boo you can't touch me..." What Emeriti and Settlers currently have where both kds are trading hits, ops, etc. That's a hostile. I was always told 12 hours after cf offer they're free to be waved because armies would be home by then. This is, of course, debated by multiple groups as to how long you have to wait or if you have to wait for cf to be accepted. Often I think people will just answer in such a way that is convenient for them at the time.

So if Settlers stops hitting, sends a CF, and waits 12 hours, CR is free to jump in?

[Zauper]

So if Settlers stops hitting, sends a CF, and waits 12 hours, CR is free to jump in?

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It turns out that bullying a ghetto in an attempt to run from us doesn't work.

The excuses thus far --
'They robbed us and completely ruined our prep!' (aka they robbed 3M gc, under 3% of gc)
'They were going to wave us!' (aka they hit pale's kingdom and then agreed to war with Chrystal)
'They forced us to train up by refusing to give us land!' (aka Emeriti got greedy and wanted more than they could get with imminent conflict)

What Emeriti doesn't seem to realize is that Settlers waving them would have been a best case outcome for them. They would have gotten a farmwar vs a significantly weaker kd and added significant cow and t/m land at the cost of potentially some core acres. They're just upset that their gamble on baiting a farmwar from Settlers didn't occur.

There have been attempts to resolve this diplomatically, but it turns out that Emeriti would rather play martyr than accept that under the standards for play they helped create they have no leverage. So when they demand 1+ additional free waves on Settlers for a CF (wherein CR takes significantly less than we can/should), it doesn't go over very well.

So instead they get to gain the land they want from Settlers, and we get to gain probably 2x what we asked for. Maybe 3x.

[Anri]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It turns out that bullying a ghetto in an attempt to run from us doesn't work.

The excuses thus far --
'They robbed us and completely ruined our prep!' (aka they robbed 3M gc, under 3% of gc)
'They were going to wave us!' (aka they hit pale's kingdom and then agreed to war with Chrystal)
'They forced us to train up by refusing to give us land!' (aka Emeriti got greedy and wanted more than they could get with imminent conflict)

What Emeriti doesn't seem to realize is that Settlers waving them would have been a best case outcome for them. They would have gotten a farmwar vs a significantly weaker kd and added significant cow and t/m land at the cost of potentially some core acres. They're just upset that their gamble on baiting a farmwar from Settlers didn't occur.

There have been attempts to resolve this diplomatically, but it turns out that Emeriti would rather play martyr than accept that under the standards for play they helped create they have no leverage. So when they demand 1+ additional free waves on Settlers for a CF (wherein CR takes significantly less than we can/should), it doesn't go over very well.

So instead they get to gain the land they want from Settlers, and we get to gain probably 2x what we asked for. Maybe 3x.

This is how i interpreted the conflict also.
Silly Emeriti

[flogger]

If you don't want to put in the effort to stock GC or whore to keep up, then why go through the effort of dodging and causing bad blood for when you do want to compete? Just take the loss and try again next age.

[Meep]

Theory/interpretation time here.

KD A and KD B have a notice deal.

Is it common courtesy/interpretation that if KD A notices KD B and KD B enters a hostile at any time before that notice ends, that notice is reset?

Is this different depending on who engages the hostile?

If KD C waves KD B I assume KD A would respect that KD B got waved.
But if KD B waves KD C does the same apply?

If KD A considers their notice valid so long as at the end of that notice time KD B is not in a hostile, then can KD C that KD B waved just draw out their hostile until 12/24/whatever duration people play by now, stop hitting, send a CF, and leave KD B out to dry?

It seems to me that to avoid dodges, notice deals should stipulate that notice only resets if the noticed KD is waved by an outside KD, or is in an active two-way hostile at the end of the notice period, but not if they go and wave someone else.

--

[Meep]

If you don't want to put in the effort to stock GC or whore to keep up, then why go through the effort of dodging and causing bad blood for when you do want to compete? Just take the loss and try again next age.

Well if they wanted to dodge CR and get a farm war, they needed to whore, but not get themselves too far out of range of the next tier of KDs below them.

[flogger]

Theory/interpretation time here.

KD A and KD B have a notice deal.

Is it common courtesy/interpretation that if KD A notices KD B and KD B enters a hostile at any time before that notice ends, that notice is reset?

Is this different depending on who engages the hostile?

If KD C waves KD B I assume KD A would respect that KD B got waved.
But if KD B waves KD C does the same apply?

If KD A considers their notice valid so long as at the end of that notice time KD B is not in a hostile, then can KD C that KD B waved just draw out their hostile until 12/24/whatever duration people play by now, stop hitting, send a CF, and leave KD B out to dry?

It seems to me that to avoid dodges, notice deals should stipulate that notice only resets if the noticed KD is waved by an outside KD, or is in an active two-way hostile at the end of the notice period, but not if they go and wave someone else.

--

I've managed to make it 20 ages without having to clarify any of this. If you're one of the best 2 kingdoms on the server, fight the other best kingdom on the server. Generally makes things easier. Also means you don't spend 3 months picking on people who you're much better than, and they tend to end up not disliking you.

[bombdigie]

So when does everyone get to GB Emeriti?

[Meep]

I've managed to make it 20 ages without having to clarify any of this. If you're one of the best 2 kingdoms on the server, fight the other best kingdom on the server. Generally makes things easier. Also means you don't spend 3 months picking on people who you're much better than, and they tend to end up not disliking you.

Well yes, in theory that works out great. Self-serving reality though, the disadvantaged KD in that situation isn't always going to want to take a loss.

I think most KD chasing the charts in both whoring and warring tiers, are more interested in gaining as much land as possible/winning as many wars as possible, as a priority over fighting their best available competition.

[Meep]

So when does everyone get to GB Emeriti?

Soon, but your KD has to have won a war to participate

[Pale]

No CR is not good to jump in because Settlers hit back a bunch. It is an active hostile until cf is ACCEPTED now. Those circumstances where someone can jump in only work if the kd they waved does nothing. Hitting and op'ing back complicates it immensely. For the circumstances I described to exists there has to be no hostile such as:

#1 KD being waved can't have hit back or op'd back at all. No hostile actions of any kind from 1 side.
#2 CF offer has to be on the table, preferably quick. In-game message about not being interested also doesn't hurt.
#3 KD waving leaves that cf on the table for a good long while. Like i stated before, timetable for how long is debatable.

There are, of course, other things that also help the cause such as after the kd gets waved they couldn't declare if they wanted to because they're out of war range, etc. but these 3 things are the most important.

[Zauper]

Theory/interpretation time here.

KD A and KD B have a notice deal.

Is it common courtesy/interpretation that if KD A notices KD B and KD B enters a hostile at any time before that notice ends, that notice is reset?

Never had this scenario arise since I've been playing again, but flogger told me of something called a 'reset clause' that they had to invent because proteus kept noticing kds before they entered conflict. I would assume that in that scenario, you would need a reset clause to avoid the notice.

Is this different depending on who engages the hostile?

If KD C waves KD B I assume KD A would respect that KD B got waved.
But if KD B waves KD C does the same apply?

It would be somewhat situational, but generally, I would expect any real conflict between top kds to be respected in that situation. I would expect that waving a ghetto would not be. A ghetto waving you probably would be.

If KD A considers their notice valid so long as at the end of that notice time KD B is not in a hostile, then can KD C that KD B waved just draw out their hostile until 12/24/whatever duration people play by now, stop hitting, send a CF, and leave KD B out to dry?

As that has happened historically, presumably the answer to this question is yes.

It seems to me that to avoid dodges, notice deals should stipulate that notice only resets if the noticed KD is waved by an outside KD, or is in an active two-way hostile at the end of the notice period, but not if they go and wave someone else.

Assuming that any of these things need to be stipulated rather than just known? :)

It seems to me like Emeriti, and jd in particular, should be aware of how this all works considering how exactly closely it mirrors the AMA-Havoc-Sanc situation a few ages back?

Except jd went and tried to rob a cow blind and got hit for it, AMA didn't just train up to wave a ghetto. So... it's much clearer.

Hell, earlier this age Emeriti waved a kd that had just ~10h prior done a full hostile wave on a different kingdom. Really no reason for them to not know what's going to happen.


[09:30:52] <zapanap> .kdecon
[09:30:53] <munkbot> We have: 94k acres | 14,631k nw | tpa+wpa+sci 2,180k nw | 654k peons | 809k units (+1,036k solds) | 2,880k income (962k TOG) | 529k wages | 607,463k gc | 1,720k runes | 7,651k food
[09:30:53] <zapanap> .kdeconwar
[09:30:54] <munkbot> They have: 80k acres | 13,007k nw | tpa+wpa+sci 1,985k nw | 775k peons | 1,065k units (+56k solds) | 4,155k income (1,251k TOG) | 1,207k wages | 31,261k gc | 1,242k runes | 5,738k food

If they don't want a diplo solution, hard to blame anyone but them.