Math it Out Yourself, or Use Tools?

[LitheOhm]

I've seen it since I very first jumped on, and I'd like to discuss it :)

There seems to be at least two schools of thought where using apps/tools/extensions/whatever is concerned: pen-and-paper only! and I do what I want!

I'm interested in what your take is about tools and tactics in general. Clearly some things are allowed and are not, but I'm not after experiential evidence--I want to know opinions and views :) strictly about this please.

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I've been introduced to Munk, Angel, and UpoOpu. I've also eyeballed what to send in the war room. However, I've been mathing in an Excel spreadsheet since I first understood the fact that this game is made up mostly of sweet, sweet math.

Some I've spoken with think that my spreadsheet is 1) too much work or 2) not within the spirit of the game. I've got to disagree with the second part, since troubleshooting it has made the first part true in part lol, at least sometimes.

I learned about Excel while developing my own tool. I spent a long while getting it to where I could make it a copy/paste from my throne. I also spent time setting up a couple of other features that help me out, like a build calculator as well as what to train and how many of them I need to hit my target per acre.

When I make a hit, it takes me a bit less time (when my spreadsheet is working, at least). I get the SoT, paste my throne, then my minimum send is figured out and I hit. This saved time doesn't cut down on what it made for those attacks though--I spent hours preplanning those attacks, every attack. Just because I can get thirty seconds doesn't mean it wasn't lost. Kind of like making art, just because someone spent thirty minutes making a picture doesn't mean it only took them thirty minutes.

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I want to discuss using tools on principle. Please don't bring up that other thing, or opinions on marketing tools. This is about whether using or not using tools like UpoOpu, Munk, Angel, w/e detracts from the human element. In my opinion it doesn't so I want to explore the stances of people who believe it does. Maybe I'm missing something?

[StratOcastle]

It doesn't effect human interaction directly, but it certainly does indirectly. I've served in several bot driven kingdoms and this mostly effects war kingdoms.

Why?

Because the doctrine of not going for acres boils the strategy down to simplistic goals. This leads to core player disinterest, strange standards like attacking twice per day, and strats that are victim bait.

I could go on, but it's the overall cultural degradation. If not for my break being over I'd clarify further.
The tools themselves are marvels.

[LitheOhm]

I got an invite a week or so back for a higher nw kd. When they told me that they outsourced their math to a bot I was saddened lol. That alone would have been enough to turn me off, I put a lot of time into my math. I like it :) it was the main reason I came here.

I do agree with you to the effect that requiring others to play the game via the bot is bogus. Requiring a certain amount of wt or whatever seems cool enough, like meeting kd protocol. But such micromanaging as "math this way!" isn't right. There's a big divide between those who want to do it themselves, or not at all and just play by feel, and those who have favorite tools.

I'm very proud of my two spreadsheets ^_^ and I've got admiration for those who have made things even more sophisticated than mine :)

[jmiedema]

Having tools like munk doesnt completely outsource the math needed for attacking. Especially as someone who on occasion leads waves in a warring kingdom.. organizing hits for 18 or so attackers takes math. Usually people are hitting 4 times each, so you need some pretty astute mental math to try and figure out the options available (even with tools) like quickly figuring out hey someone has 300k offense, so that means they can hit that 200k defense faery with a massacre, with +hours to keep timing sync'd with other armies, then send 3 attacks against that attacker with armies out that only has 33k defense.

Figuring out how much to send on someone is the easy part of the game, and that is the main part that is outsourced with these tools. The advanced aspect of the game is min/maxing and figuring out the best way to do your 4-5 hits each unique in the grand scheme of their whole kingdom.

These tools are more beneficial to leadership than they are to the individual person.

Plus by the sounds of it, using your spreadsheets is basically like inputting info into a bot, you just did it yourself so it seems more "grass roots" and "mathematical" to you. but effectively it is doing a similar task as these other tools.

But obviously feel free to do whatever you want that makes the game more fun for you. I just highly doubt you have led a wave with 18 attackers looking at you to "give them orders quickly so they dont get attacked with their troops home" while trying to slowly work out your spreadsheet. To math out the options. Doing this all while at work with bosses peering over in your direction of course :D

[StratOcastle]

I will say the bots (potentially) provide an incredibly important role as teaching tool. I believe this is not only underused, I've not seen a kingdom teach with a bot at all.

Culturally, and it's not the bots fault, these tools fall in the hands of control freaks. It becomes the "yes, control is all" ecstasy that completes the control freak. The other problem is that they were a symbol of kingdom status which made non-bot kingdoms feel they were missing out. They were, but not in the way the bots are used. Now most competitive kingdoms have bots, and let's not forget about instant chat. Instant chat is another requirement that has great utility but is largely misused.

Essentially what I'm saying is it undermines teamwork by it's unintended use as Big Brother. I've seen non-English speaking players kicked out of kingdoms despite the mathematical basis of the game. I'd much rather keep a player who I can communicate with through relative logic than talk to a "slave by numbers" noninstictual android.

I've been in kingdoms with the spreadsheet guys and it makes me smile. I'm not a math oriented player by any stretch, but I love that our differences can be as one through teamwork.

Another thing I've noticed is that as an outsider I'm much more willing to dabble in top strat hearsay. If I catch wind about home strats or soldier swapping I'm happy to toy around till I find a happy medium. I mess with builds and atypical persona/race combinations. In several organized war kingdoms with bot and chat agendas there's little patience for curiosity. What I find odd is the poor prep I encounter and relative naivety of core. When the orders are to only do what you're told the base suffers.

You see, I couldn't have run GS and hospitals and relay tap and use zone tactics and fake intel and hide soldiers and balance science and levy gains and lure attackers and bait t/ms and stall chains and provide aid and retal up and grow without diplo in an organized war kingdom. I got to learn by being out in the field and seeking challenges.

Finally, I find it interesting that smart people don't realize they are smarter than other people. They seem to think we "get it" without asking or illustrating their enlightened view. Luckily I was blessed with the ability to sense deeper intellect so I pay attention to the evidence. I learn about top strats by the jokes they tell, the time they take, or the speed that they execute. I engage in retal with tough opponents both for challenge and to see how they function. I get to see tops in their evolving state of readiness and project to my limits where they're headed.

I don't blame the bots or their brilliant creators, but to the control that they gravitate.

[DM_Benjamin]

gators *****es better be using umunk

[LitheOhm]

You've got me there, Jmie. I'm far from a position of leadership lol. My spreadsheets are most definitely for individual users, and I don't think they'd be friendly for boss' eyes lol. "Why does that say ogre/ghoul...?"

I don't know if it seems more grassroots for me. It's more the fact that I am in control of this, and any errors or assumptions it makes are ones I'm telling it to. If I was gutting and reworking an IRC bot to do the same thing, at least I'd know what's under the hood heh. I trust my math, and I know its weaknesses and quirks.

I believe I could run it on a spreadsheet :) but I'm not there yet. I'll not be stepping up as that kind of leader until the age after next lol. At least.

[LitheOhm]

I like that you mention control freak, Strat. That's where my computer skills come in. The only time my PC does anything is when I tell it to or have told it to in the past lol. I think some amount of "worship the bot!" proselytizing upon others is part control freak, and I think some of it would come out as just getting one's way/being "right." I learned to fight it back when I heard of people just running attacks without mathing lol, others should too. No sense in telling anyone they're having badwrongfun.

"Essentially what I'm saying is it undermines teamwork by it's unintended use as Big Brother" This!!!
I'm not here to math. Yes, it's what brought me. But I'm here to be around other people. I'm still shy when it comes to messaging people in other kds, but I'm so much more social on this game than other places I've been on the net. Ever played WoW? People don't want to chat or emote, at least not where I was. They wanted to freaking fish lol.

I'll have to come back to this later lol.

[khronosschoty]

The whole control freak thing exists with or without bots. Fact is if you have a team that is supposed to communicate via the in game forum etc or the bot, its lame to have those who refuse to be a team player. The bot makes communicating and math-ing uto much easier and more stream lined. Pretty much the only complaint from non bot users I'd imagine is that they would prefer to not share math or communicate; at least a good amount of the time.

[StratOcastle]

I should state that my preference is to play this game under duress.

1-By playing without bots and without external com systems.
A-I'm poor at math and slow in calculation
B-I'm a mobile player with a slow system
C-I use more stealth because I can't calculate projected effects

2-By competing at the highest levels obtainable regardless of strength.
A-Given a choice I will always hit the tougher target
B-I want my competitors to be renown and at full strength
C-I want my competitors to be faster, organized and efficient

3-By only retaliating and only being aggressive when ordered.
A-Because I only retal most competitors have more honor and science
B-I want to experience your full aggression and see if I can turn it around
C-It's a type of chivalry. Most often my troops are hit at home oow.

It's not in my nature to bully. In fact I want my competitors to have bots and instant com systems. The fact that it takes me longer to calculate and to see the field are part of my enjoyment.

It has occurred to me that I could use every tool and every advantage and be aggressive. I know that I would be dangerous, but I'm not here for that. I've been in wars and toyed with opponents. It's why I tend to avoid playing orcs. I let my opponents get up after knocking them down unless there is a lesson in it.

I'm not a better player, I'm free.

[munk]

I find there are plenty of "math" while using umunk. You gotta understand the math to really understand the results the bots gives. The prep/sim are good to do the math for you, but you need to understand the underlying mechanisms to excel.

In my opinion its like getting a calculator. It doesn't mean you don't do math, you are just able to do it faster :P Or something.

#donate

[StratOcastle]

I'll write about the meta later when I have time.

In the meantime watch Terminator to be in the frame of mind for our bot discussion.

[Flames73]

I think how I started to fully understand the mechanics of the game was building my own spreadsheet (with loads of mistakes in it). That was when I really started to delve into what affects what and I think that really made me a better player (and of course being educated by good players).

I haven't used any bots other than the one in my kd, which fyi isn't munk or stinger or those things, and I guess it probably isn't as advanced as the ones I just mentioned :P So I don't know what functions and capabilities are out there.

Think the best decision I made was to work on an excel, changes how much you know by quite some bit in a short period of time. In the end, they are all tools that just helps makes things more simple. You can have all the spreadsheets/bots/whatever but it doesn't make you a better player unless you utilize it properly and learn the human side of the game. And that side of the game just takes experience, by staying in the game, by fighting different kds that run different setups and etc.

[StratOcastle]

Understanding meta is a two edged sword. There's the ideal meta and the practical. The truest meta is undoubtedly in top kingdom operation because it encompasses the totality of leverage from diplo(above the game) to micromechanics. Some of these practices are nearly infinite in their efficiency and therefore practical decisions prevail in the sensible ends.

In D&D there was a meta forum where players would try to squeeze the most damage out of particular builds. In short, these builds were highly regarded by their participants but frankly impractical to a true adventuring scenario.
This is my opinion of the suicide builds we see throughout the Utopia lower landscape.

If these suicide builds were so effective I wouldn't be a prolific land gainer in the vast majority of conflicts. I'm an idiot; I was a terrible math student and I'm as technically inept as one could expect from a first world citizen. So how can I do well in war? It's the misinterpreted meta.

One of the true top kingdom meta practices is to feed off the acres that war kingdoms won't defend. it's a rather friendly affair where acres aren't taken from t/ms. You ever notice it's much easier to get a CF from a top kingdom than formidable war kingdom? Watch the feeding tube.....this is where your acres end up. This isn't wrong, this is nature. But what is wrong?

There's a misunderstanding regarding how we interpret efficiency. When I was with The Feary Circle I was running a 50% elites/ospecs army with a faery sage and I pulled tons of acres from all the avians, dwarves, humans, orcs and undead. I had no fear engaging larger provinces built as attackers, but most were equivalent. My twpa was sufficient to keep ops and sabotage within reason from a defensive standpoint. I was ineffective with ops and sabotage for offense. We weren't organized enough to get NM waves going so this was predominantly march driven. My contemporaries can confirm my build was garbage.

To explain my dumpster fire build strat, I believe in retaliating bottom feeders. But this isn't my point. My point is this: sustainable defense is widely ignored in the war tier core meta. I make a living off of it. This is practical meta. If you're not following; because I retain more defense the enemy core can't perform the traditional t/m dismantling because my province is in the way. I have more acres, thus more economy, and I'm built to fight. My nw makes gains trifling and I relay attacks to keep acres fluid.

Now, my meta is not a better way. What is it? A position like a chess tactic. Obviously the suicide build has a place but not the entire core in every war kingdom. Sure, some are welcome as a stylistic approach to go full commando. The true meta in Utopia is closer to chess mechanically. You have 8 pieces. 8 races, 8 personalities. In D&D we had variables in the same meta and we build our party accordingly. We had -

2 strikers = suicide attackers
3 defenders = heavy attackers(like me)
2 leaders/healers = hybrid
1 controller/magic user = t/m or supermage

Each and every build was different and emphasized different strengths. My strength was engaging large groups of enemy attackers. The more the better. Seriously. I was build for durability to withstand being dog piled and being positioned in critical zones to prevent our party from being overrun. This is where I interpreted nw zone tactics in Utopia. The other two defenders were specific to locking down particular individuals. One for bosses the other for colossal thumpers or closed area funneling.

Top kingdom meta doesn't use a full chess alignment because they have acre bias. Even these are up to the interpretation of the genius in charge.

How bots play into this will be my next post.