Sage OP with Age 67 Proposed Changes?

[Fizzlebeef]

I'm normally sympathetic for Sage, but when I saw that they're immune to learns and have free Sustained level of sci (1 book per 2 acres) under the proposed changes, it seems almost too good to be true. Thoughts?

[StratOcastle]

I guess they still have to run them right.
Avians are great but I never see them run properly; no offense to avian lovers. Perhaps I missed your performance(?).

Final changes will determine much. Absolute immunities are strong. I like cleric for plague immunity. It allows me to play a race that normally wouldn't mix it up with undead. I'm running an elf cleric EoA.

I ran an avian cleric beginning of age and the combination led to great eowcf economy. The acres were a given.
Ambush, plague immunity plus stackable defense and the ability to run 2 uniques inside my enemies return time....you can smash any other core attacker race if you play to your strengths. Sadly, most kingdoms run avian in traditional waves and lose out on their dynamic offensive spectrum.

[octobrev]

Lolololol sage is so bad. Next, tell me avian is good. I'm enjoying it.

[StratOcastle]

Ok. Avian is good. Avian is fast. Avian is cool because they're winged like angels.

Until mermaids, avians.

[Palem]

Sage really isn't that strong. War kingdoms won't run them because you don't get much pump time if you war. Whore kingdoms won't run them because you can get better science with merchant.

They're really a middle-of-the-pack personality. Learn immunity is nice, but far from OP.

[jmiedema]

I guess it will depend on what changes Bishop decides to make on War Win Science Bonus. If he increases it, it could be worth a warring kingdom to have learn immunity, especially if their desire is to stay small, so they can do a learn wave, and get hit for land in return and be totally OK with the trade off. I do personally think Sage was nerfed overall with loss of increased sci benefit. That was kind of the main reason to run them over say Mystic/Rogue in a T/M function. Having great numbers. But now Rogue/Mystic will have much much better numbers than sage in those regards.. that kind of leaves it as an attacker personality... Could be viable seeing as Warrior and Tact were nerfed, assuming a 16 year age * 7 days * 24 ticks/day that would mean 1344 bpa given just from the sage book bonus though, which is pretty nice. So if a warring kingdom grows rapidly to the range they want to war in for the rest of the age, they will likely be able to reach 3000 bpa pretty easily as a warring kingdom only keeping active sci on between wars, and doing the odd learn on top of say 2-3 war win bonusses. That would provide pretty solid numbers (the problem being Libraries are tough to fit into any warring kd's war build, especialy if the personality doesnt reduce losses or attack time, or increase ome.. kind of hard to fit the build space to make it practical. Additionally Warring kingdoms generally need to war all age, but running a sage attacker core will make it pretty difficult for that kingdom to war early and get early war wins or honour to make them competitive later on.

[Cry0]

I agree, to an extent, with Palem.

I think it comes down to if the proposed changes to war/tactician stick.

The war change in particular is awful. I would run an attacker/sage over an attacker/war without question.

Mid-late age the ridiculous BPA levels an active attacker/sage can maintain would overpower the 10% ome of a warrior. As a ud/tact my BPA this age all came from OOW learns. It is fairly easy to find people with 1mil+ books and no schools for easy multi-tap learns. 300k+ books every 10-12 hours adds up quickly.

Id see the attacker argument be between Cleric, Sage, Merchant and maybe tactician.

[noobium]

Sage is pretty awful if you have science in a kingdom that can normally defend it. Only really good point I can see is that a Sage kingdom can learn-rape in war without being learned back, but doing that requires winning wars in the first place. Sages ain't winning **** early age, and that will set them up for long-term fail. Shiny science numbers look nice, but it does little good if you have no bonus for the first 6-8 weeks and can't aim for any chart goal you'd want.

[Ethan]

Not so much for a war crown, but for your run of the mill 'big hearted getto' warring kingdom, a sage is rather awesome. Go crazy aggressive, because high science levels provides chain mitigation - and as soon as you are over-landed/shelled, just start learning like mad. Let them chain you - someone was getting it, you can take it like a champ. Just lets you start 3x learn 1x TM at the bottom to lock the enemy chain targets down.

My kingdom is actually somewhat competent at warring, so at this level it really either needs solo chain bait builds (avian? orc?) or *real* commitment from the attacking core to play sage like nutcases. (Being former TFC from the attacking ages, *I* play like a looney anyway.)


Everything except wiz and sci can be replaced fairly easily. Attackers don't need much for wiz. Now sages can't be learned. To quote (paraphrase?) from Ender's Game:
"Some enemies have never learned to count."

[RedPanda]

The current % bonus, is much stronger than the 2land = 1 sci + learn immunity.
It isnt that strong being most people cannot even hit 1mil science hell even 500k sci as a human this age which they get that 2land =1 sci ability.

You want to hit at least 3-5mil without any science production bonuses to even think about playing a sage..... that being said trading the % bonus for Sci immunity is appealing with or without that land sci ability.

[vlahul82]

I'm normally sympathetic for Sage, but when I saw that they're immune to learns and have free Sustained level of sci (1 book per 2 acres) under the proposed changes, it seems almost too good to be true. Thoughts?

Yes, it is insane.

This favors the explorers greatly. Not Fair.

They will sit 2 months in science mode pump and nothing can be done to their science. Not even learns.

[pathetic sheep]

Not so much for a war crown, but for your run of the mill 'big hearted getto' warring kingdom, a sage is rather awesome. Go crazy aggressive, because high science levels provides chain mitigation - and as soon as you are over-landed/shelled, just start learning like mad. Let them chain you - someone was getting it, you can take it like a champ. Just lets you start 3x learn 1x TM at the bottom to lock the enemy chain targets down.

My kingdom is actually somewhat competent at warring, so at this level it really either needs solo chain bait builds (avian? orc?) or *real* commitment from the attacking core to play sage like nutcases. (Being former TFC from the attacking ages, *I* play like a looney anyway.)

...

Remove the words like "awesome".

Sage not for crown for ghetto. Get shelled. Get chained. Fight at bottom. Bait build. Plays like faery attacker.

It might be worth having one sage and many rogues so you can AW and amnesia. Is much more fun when the target believes it can not happen but then it does. The entertainment value could exceed the cost.

[Sheister]

If I were ghetto baiting, I would run avian sages this age. I would give button with learn waves to make them come at me bro.

[StratOcastle]

I see someone else likes sagebrush chicken.

[RedPanda]

Yes, it is insane.

This favors the explorers greatly. Not Fair.

They will sit 2 months in science mode pump and nothing can be done to their science. Not even learns.

Your telling me that you guys dont target explorers for their land?