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Thread: UD/Rogue War Build - TDs or WTs?

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    UD/Rogue War Build - TDs or WTs?

    So, what is a better war build. 20% TD or 20% WT? Mind you the primary role is an attacker. TPA around 2.5/3.0 raw and 45% thief sci.

    My thought says TD, but any suggestions?

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    wt because if you're doing early ops with that tpa it's going to be against a target that is flattened with raze/massacre. td might make sense if you find an exceptionally weak target and know they can't react in time, and you'd rather just op outright.

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    It's situational, but in most cases 20% is overkill, I'd go 10% TD 10% WT or just 10% TD. Depends on what your KD and enemy KD is running, always does.
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    It really depends on what you plan to do with the rogues. The heavier thief it should be the more you should lean towards TD. With 2/3 rtpa, which I think is a waste concerning rogue bonuses, you really need the wts and td. Undead can handle that because of the spare acres you have (no farms). I'd choose to use full rogue potential and go 5+ rtpa running a minimum of 15-20% td. You can still manage to squeeze out about 190+ mopa with the right build at 5 rtpa.

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    I don't run rogues but I've tried doing just TD and it tends to be risky unless you regulate your resources as a hyperactive. It never became a clear danger, but I balanced TD with WT and it worked nicely. 10% and 10%. I did this with the first elf cleric I ran.

    Generally those should be decent numbers since rogue doubles the effectiveness of TD. Obviously things change in accordance with enemy numbers, but 10% each is a good base to work from. Like rax for my avian tacs my intuition tells me you should build ahead of your acres so you're not suffering as much when you expand. Keeping up with tpa is important so I generally train roundly(dspecs ospecs elites thieves) when I'm stalled by attack exchanges and emphasize thieves when I'm taking acres unopposed.
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    20% td, as u grow overbuild WT so u end up on like 10% of each

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    What's the point of picking rogue if you're not going to use TDs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palem View Post
    What's the point of picking rogue if you're not going to use TDs?
    Only one person is suggesting that I believe.
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    use tds when you have tpa that is more secure, not use td when attackers are at their strongest and can easily wreck a high-tpa province with low defense. if you can support enough tpa to matter then of course use dens, but OP made it clear his tpa is only slightly above average.

    if you're building your incoming acres most usefully, you're building large chunks of whatever you need at the moment, so it's not too hard to insert 10-15% td at a time when the td will mean more. at war start is where attackers are going to be at their strongest, both in offensive output and in their ability to defend against your ops (barring support to remove those defenses). trying to overload tpa to compensate for that is a really bad idea, and that has already been ruled out by OP's stated tpa level. you wind up with a province that is at a substantial disadvantage when attacking and isn't all that effective at opping without support from the kingdom... it's possible but it's probably better to just play as a full-on attacker, especially if you're running most of your kingdom on a similar plan.

    things like this are why i don't recommend playing undead/rogue in the first place, because sacrificing your personality for plague and -75% losses isn't worth picking a better race with a better personality. it can work, but undead is choosing rogue primarily to get around their racial penalty, and not because they suffer delusions of being an actual factual thief.

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    UD/Rogue is fine, you just don't know the benefits of it. Blue Mass I can handle because nobody takes him seriously, you not so much. This is not a character assassination attempt, this is me telling you to stop misleading people while at the same time warning them as much as I can about you. Now my conscience is clean, if people choose to trust you it's their fault now, they can't say I didn't try to warn them.

    Have a nice day sir.
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    I thought about Undead/Rogue quite thoroughly and I'm quite right about this. It has benefits but it also has weaknesses, weaknesses which are exposed when trying to do too much with high TPA (while nerfing some of its strengths). You would have to pull from somewhere to get the TPA, and that will come from defense (in which case you are a prime target for chain and massacre) or offense (in which case you are at a stronger disadvantage against pure attackers, one for not picking an attacker personality and two for shorting a couple epa). Beyond that, you have to ask yourself what benefits you get by jamming extra TPA that you aren't getting by creating TPA weak spots instead through massacre - or the benefit of running td instead of something with a more reliable return, assuming you intend to succeed most of your ops anyway or minimize the risk of losses. Armies on the other hand don't have a fail rate and do a lot more immediate damage. In any event OP already chose to run normal TPA and has decided to play essentially a pure attacker so the answer is much easier.

    I actually played a core with undead/rogue and watched them do what you suggest, and sighed when the inevitable happened. I tried to tell them that would happen, but instead of listening to me they listen to people like you.

    Of course this is an attack ad, but remember that time ****Style got horribly raped by Green because they fail with undead/merchant? Good times.
    So go eat some feces and bugger off.

    Anyway to OP - you should probably ask whether your kingdom is giving button or receiving, because that would make a difference. TD are also useful if planning to steal gold and stuff oow, but your 2.5 TPA doesn't let you steal much - maybe gc off of kingdoms that have yet to pump TPA.

    You should probably consider adjusting your TPA to your opponent, rather than sticking to a fixed TPA. If you are able to draft deep, 2.5 is pretty low TPA even for an ordinary attacker.

  12. #12
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    Use TDs and go on the offensive. Boost your tpa up to a more significant level. Running WTs over TDs is basically just saying 'I accept I'm prop food for enemy heavy rogues, so I'll just try to slow that down' - it's weak and is a waste of picking rogue in the first place. I might get battered for saying this but you can drop a bit of offense to bump the tpa higher - I would be trying to pack on about 5rtpa on an ud/rogue if I were to run it (which I wouldn't, but that's not what's being asked!)

    How many ud/rogues in your KD? If just a few, you'll be on rune/gc steal and NS duties I'd imagine, which means you can run lower tpa. If you have a whole bunch of them, I'd be using them for mass AW/prop on enemy t/ms (requiring high tpa) to save trying to trad-chain them and have low incoming on your top hitters (which makes them easy deep chains and forces you to release all that tpa immediately).
    Last edited by s0830887; 06-05-2016 at 18:12. Reason: Wrote wpa; meant tpa
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    Why the hell would you consider wts? You picked rogue and wasted a good attacker personality at least go full tds to help with your limited tpa since you are supposed to be an attacker.

    WTS = defense
    TDS = offense for a rogue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neanderthal View Post
    Why the hell would you consider wts? You picked rogue and wasted a good attacker personality at least go full tds to help with your limited tpa since you are supposed to be an attacker.

    WTS = defense
    TDS = offense for a rogue.
    because you get fat. Anyone who gets to fat ends up needing WT against some setups. As such when u get fat and u dilute your tpa you switch from things like prop/riots/ga to rune steal/ns/kidnap. If the enemy is heavy in rogues phasing in WT is a smart move so you can aim to pump def more safely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Persain View Post
    because you get fat. Anyone who gets to fat ends up needing WT against some setups. As such when u get fat and u dilute your tpa you switch from things like prop/riots/ga to rune steal/ns/kidnap. If the enemy is heavy in rogues phasing in WT is a smart move so you can aim to pump def more safely.

    Correct, so to keep being effective and not waste the personality you put more tds in. If your phat then the attackers are going to take the land anyways. Putting in a few wts mid war when you are phat is useless. The percentages will be to small.
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