Libraries Age 67

[Tadpole]

Difficult to make a broad assumption like that considering other variables play into the calculation such as libraries not being affected by BE. If you draft deeply / homespump through a long hostile where your BE starts to tank hard, the benefits from libraries outweigh other buildings that are subsequently affected by BE dropping.

It ultimately depends partly on what your overall BPA is, but also on where your province is within the kd, your role, and how your province is to be used.

You can make fair assumption though: Libraries is one of the most over-used buildings in the game. Not that its not a good building. It is. At times. But due to the fact that it's quite situational and almost only merited (perhaps save from on well pumped TMs) on basis of the kd meta game.

[gopos]

Hi Guys interesting read and discussion!. i came back To utopia last age, been of For 12 years or so i think i played age 10-15 maybe more :P so atm we are like 10 IRL friends playing this game and we are always arguing about what is a good warbuild, last war i dropped banks entirely to have libs instead

i ran like
8%homes,
7% farms
25% towers
10% uilds
20% tds
15% forts
15% libs

Per Acre Effect
Alchemy 148,259 87.16 +13.1% Income
Tools 186,239 109.488 +10.5% Building Effectiveness
Housing 176,193 103.582 +6.7% Population Limits
Food 87,869 51.657 +57.8% Food Production
Military 118,023 69.384 +4.4% Military Efficiency
Crime 176,820 103.951 +107.7% Thievery Effectiveness
Channeling 146,491 86.121 +56.0% Magic Effectiveness & Rune Production


i know it's not high in any means, cause we are like only getting sci due to warwins currently 4/6 WW

im running close to 4wpa cause i got rekt one war getting better at that part
around 6rtpa

faery Rogue currently Marquis

What would i Cut/change from my current build for my next`? do i get anything out of those libs o shall i like go more banks?

this is what i think is a Good build

Guilds 10%
towers 20%
farms 6%
TD 20%
forts 15%
libs 12%
homes 17%

any thoughts?

[s0830887]

Scrap the libs mate. I'm currently f/mys, sitting on about 1300bpa, and I am using 7% libs max. In war I suggest you run something like:

20% homes
8% farms
20% forts
20% td
12% guilds
20% towers

Or something along those lines. Banks are overrated. Homes are way better for BE, which means they are way better for rogue (double BE on tds)

[beans]

Libs are not for attackers, attackers need raw military. raw military sustains much better than land bonuses. When you get hit and take in land your libs disappear, but if you started with higher raw military you will usually end a land exchange with higher raw military.

If your an attacker dont run libs.

[JohnnyReid]

Start to run a few libraries (like 5% when you're around 800 bpa, and you've sunk most of that into crime/magic). You need way more science dude, particularly this late into the age. Don't turn it off!

[JohnnyReid]

faery Rogue currently Marquis

What would i Cut/change from my current build for my next`? do i get anything out of those libs o shall i like go more banks?

this is what i think is a Good build

Guilds 10%
towers 20%
farms 6%
TD 20%
forts 15%
libs 12%
homes 17%

any thoughts?

You need WAY more homes. Homes will give you high BE when you draft deep (also better than running high forts and low homes/low draft for defense..) for war. High BE will help your TD's keep you at -95% losses.

Something like this...

7% farms
35% homes
13% forts
20% TD
10% guilds
10% towers
5% libs (increase this as your BPA goes up)

You need to stack runes before war, with this low % towers, but this way, you'll be able to sustain your thieves far better.

[Blue Mass]

If you're a sage you need to use them. If not than it is not as important. Libraries only make sage's powers even better.

[octobrev]

Sage doesn't have a sci bonus ._.

[Bart of Sparta]

If you're a sage you need to use them. If not than it is not as important. Libraries only make sage's powers even better.

[Blue Mass]

I didn't say that. Now did I. Sages make a lot more science than the rest by whole lot more. It is crazy how much science sages bring in. If you're planning to invest in science heavily then you need libraries. You wouldn't want to play a heavy science province if you were not a sage. That is just asking to get all your science taken. If I see a non-sage province with +10kbpa or even in the high 100s I'm going to take that from them and I'm going to keep taking it until it is no more. They could have my land. Science takes time to regain while land is easily regained.

[octobrev]

Merchants outpace sage in science except when they're operating in a cf vacuum. Your point on sci protection is valid though if you're playing in a segment exposed to randoms.

[noobium]

Sage sucks.

[Blue Mass]

@octobrev When it comes to learning science no one does it better than a sage. You put merchant and a sage of the same land size and have them learn at the fastest rate, the sage will always win. And not only that, a smart sage would be looking to attack a merchant with lots of science. Being a non-sage with lots of science is just asking to get learned until it is all gone. A smart sage would just learn that dumb merchant.

[RedPanda]

@octobrev When it comes to learning science no one does it better than a sage. You put merchant and a sage of the same land size and have them learn at the fastest rate, the sage will always win. And not only that, a smart sage would be looking to attack a merchant with lots of science. Being a non-sage with lots of science is just asking to get learned until it is all gone. A smart sage would just learn that dumb merchant.

Aye, Last age it is their ability to sit in normal and pump science and hope to not get noticed by learn hitters being attacking leaves you open for learn hitters.
This age Sages needs to be pro-active and do learn hits so one does not need to do traditional science pump or it is less important to do it. But it is good if you know how to pump science given the chance.

Sage sucks.

But generally the sage does NOT have the highest books in their NW range yet alone their kingdom (and I am not talking about BPA). So Noobium's comment about sages generally is correct. ie your a waste of space.

Libs are not for attackers, attackers need raw military. raw military sustains much better than land bonuses. When you get hit and take in land your libs disappear, but if you started with higher raw military you will usually end a land exchange with higher raw military.

If your an attacker dont run libs.

Eh no, if you have good science you better run lib being your Def/Off is going to go up when attacked and your TPA/WPA too. Plus your econ wont be in the negatives that easy either if chained, hell your def will usually go up too even with BG and PF hits.
But the main problem is attackers usually don't even try to get enough science to make it worth while to have Lib. That and land management when chained or just gaining land in general is also another skill an attacker has to learn.

[Tadpole]

Eh no, if you have good science you better run lib being your Def/Off is going to go up when attacked and your TPA/WPA too. Plus your econ wont be in the negatives that easy either if chained, hell your def will usually go up too even with BG and PF hits.
But the main problem is attackers usually don't even try to get enough science to make it worth while to have Lib. That and land management when chained or just gaining land in general is also another skill an attacker has to learn.

Not denying that libraries are decent, and can be an ok building even for hitters. Use with care though. In many (most?) situations other utility buildings are stronger. Wars are dynamic, and static comparisons often come up short in the fluidity of acre swaps with constant over/under pop, and situations where raw numbers or caps (will the mod let me double or prevent doubling - or be superfluous, etc.) are more important than mods in the long run.

During chain libs can be quite nice, alleviating some over-pop. But on the flip side, once chained down - all other mods from libs are usually a waste. Econ is too tanked for the income+BE sci to make a difference. WPA and TPA raw figures and native sci boosts are usually high enough that the lib mods to sci would have little effect. Your off is higher than what you can utilise and ME sci won't matter. Acre swaps will have diminished your libs to near nothing, possibly making other buildings that would have prevented the quick swap (rax, hosps, gs or even wts that could have prevented some of that NS and lowered the number of incoming hits during chain). Etc.

Libs can give impressive mods, but the volatile and dynamic nature of war makes them better at more stable provinces (TMs, and turtlers) than low-def hitters. I've ran Sage hybrid cores. And even with such a setup I was quite conservative on the use of Libs...