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Thread: Libraries Age 67

  1. #31
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    I've actually never played sage so my experience is pretty limited but I actually prefer sage this age to last. I think objectively last age's sage was stronger, but I think this age's sage is a lot more accessible to the average player. Most KDs outside the top 10 or so struggle to properly sci pump, and with the ww bpa bonus sci pumps are (for the average KD) not really essential. Sage this age gives you sustained science all age, which really lets you rack up the bpa to levels that would be way out of reach of the average player last age. We have three sages this age and they're all sat on 2k bpa now, which is pretty cool and is something that we haven't achieved as a KD before this age. If you are active, making learn hits daily oow, plus active sci, plus sustained sage bonus, you can really get some significant bonuses. Nwpa is the biggest problem that I see with it...

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    Not denying that libraries are decent, and can be an ok building even for hitters. Use with care though. In many (most?) situations other utility buildings are stronger. Wars are dynamic, and static comparisons often come up short in the fluidity of acre swaps with constant over/under pop, and situations where raw numbers or caps (will the mod let me double or prevent doubling - or be superfluous, etc.) are more important than mods in the long run.

    During chain libs can be quite nice, alleviating some over-pop. But on the flip side, once chained down - all other mods from libs are usually a waste. Econ is too tanked for the income+BE sci to make a difference. WPA and TPA raw figures and native sci boosts are usually high enough that the lib mods to sci would have little effect. Your off is higher than what you can utilise and ME sci won't matter. Acre swaps will have diminished your libs to near nothing, possibly making other buildings that would have prevented the quick swap (rax, hosps, gs or even wts that could have prevented some of that NS and lowered the number of incoming hits during chain). Etc.

    Libs can give impressive mods, but the volatile and dynamic nature of war makes them better at more stable provinces (TMs, and turtlers) than low-def hitters. I've ran Sage hybrid cores. And even with such a setup I was quite conservative on the use of Libs...
    Well it really depends on your sci levels, plus it works on both off and def in every type of category (def/off, thievery, magic, and even econ).
    Ideally if your sci is high enough, so once you lose acres your defense goes up instead of going down preventing you from being chained or opped for that matter. Then have 1500 pez, and still have a positive income though you will be at 50% wages.

    That and you can let the lib bleed off for a better building (you still have rax, hospitals, gc or even WT in the build too), but there isn't much to build for an attacker when chained (if your chained) other than try to keep afloat and prevent losses while retailing.
    For me my building priority will be Libraries if I had high science, then farms/towers (if needed), then reduction of loss buildings, then everything else.

    Pretty much libraries should be considered into the build IF you have decent science, I am not saying you have to build it, but to consider it as an option even if one is an attacker.
    Last edited by RedPanda; 15-03-2016 at 18:53.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Well it really depends on your sci levels, plus it works on both off and def in every type of category (def/off, thievery, magic, and even econ).
    Yes. But you won't get OPed during or (near) post chain (or you face a crap kd).

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Ideally if your sci is high enough, so once you lose acres your defense goes up instead of going down preventing you from being chained or opped for that matter.
    For high off/low def provinces the ME boost to def rarely have much of an impact. Without having done the math (very easy math, but I'm also very lazy) I'd assume that increasing hospitals would sustain your def more than Libs at most BPA and BE levels and up to quite high amount of hosps.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Then have 1500 pez, and still have a positive income though you will be at 50% wages.
    Chain = tiny peon/acre = income mods are increasingly weakened.

    1500 peons make 4125 gc/tick. Say your libs mod your income sci by 10%, that's 412 gc extra per tick. Not sure that should be included in the build considerations... and certainly not enough to make a big difference on being able to pay wages or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    That and you can let the lib bleed off for a better building (you still have rax, hospitals, gc or even WT in the build too),
    Yes. But you'll have less than if you didn't add libs to the mix as well :)

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    but there isn't much to build for an attacker when chained (if your chained) other than try to keep afloat and prevent losses while retailing.
    Building post chain can be crucial, but you can easily end up in an acre-swap situation where nothing is built at all. That I agree with. Which is why I'm not arguing what to build post chain, but what to build pre-chain - and many times Libs are not the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Pretty much libraries should be considered into the build IF you have decent science, I am not saying you have to build it, but to consider it as an option even if one is an attacker.
    Ethans old calcs put a 600 BPA guideline before libs became statically worthwhile. That was with sage bonus. Without racial/pers sci mods those numbers hit 1000 BPA. After that, they make sense statically. Not always dynamically.

    So yes. After 1000 BPA you can start thinking about adding libs. But thats 1000 BPA pre-chain.

    My advice is that even after 1000 BPA, libs should be built with a purpose and not be a go-to building. In 9 out of 10 cases (outside the very top) where I spot libs on core hitters in an enemy kingdom, I consider that an advantage for me, not them.
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  4. #34
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    You also forget that you are also not building as much Banks, Forts, Thieves Dens, Homes, Towers, Training Grounds, Farms when you have Libraries.

    But yea, it all depends on your science and how you invested them, if you went heavy into only a few category and forsake others then libraries is worthless even with 1000BPA. That being said attackers rarely have good science levels, yet alone a good science spread to warrant the usage of libraries to where it matters as a priority building.
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  5. #35
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    That's why attackers should pay attention to science and take steps to improve their bpa... it's not too hard to attain 1000 bpa with some planning, though there are periodic setbacks like heavy learn attacks in war.

    Putting libs on attackers is still dicey, mostly due to unstable defense... and of course, after a land chain, the mods to WPA aren't very useful.

    Using libs oow as an economy building isn't too bad. Homes/banks are better for money, but libs' extra wpa is a useful asset in retalwars where your core FB can stall econ. It is unlikely that libs will be enough for heavy attackers to nado/LL at war start though, though it does mean less AW/massacre is needed to make that happen.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by noobium View Post
    Using libs oow as an economy building isn't too bad. Homes/banks are better for money, but libs' extra wpa is a useful asset in retalwars where your core FB can stall econ. It is unlikely that libs will be enough for heavy attackers to nado/LL at war start though, though it does mean less AW/massacre is needed to make that happen.
    ^This!

    ...not that I necessarily agree to building Libs oww anticipating retal-wars. Or to center a build towards core hitters being able to FB or LL or Nado. BUT, by all means, do build Libraries if they serve a purpose in the overall kingdom strategy. If you for instance think Orcs being able to throw a massive FB wave on the enemy core upon declaration, and if you think Libs can help you achieve that - that's a _good_ argument. The strategy might not be sound necessarily, but that's a valid argument to build Libs on a core hitter.

    An invalid argument is: "my numbers look slightly better with than without Libs". Without contextualizing the usage of Libs, and without configuring how Libs play into a wider strategical setting - the bump of libs usually doesn't add up to a more effective core province than increasing utility elsewhere.
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  7. #37
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    Aye to both Noobium and Tadpole.

    One needs to understand the relationship of libraries when compared to the other buildings before attempting to use Libraries.
    I myself keep excel spreadsheets with formulas which I play with to get an accurate sense of the exact numbers and I use it forecast things. Which goes down into detail of every building and how Tools and Housing and current peasant count in relationship of how it affects BE which in turn affects building production.
    For everyone else it is worthless unless you understand how everything works which then you might as well build the excel sheet yourself.

    So in general: follow your monarch's orders being if your asking about libraries then likely you don't have enough or know enough to go about deciding on your own build outside of the monarch's planned building spread. But do ask the monarch about it if you think you might benefit more to implement libraries.
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  8. #38
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    I start using libraries the moment my pop science has reached 200 BPA. It usually translates to a 3-4% increase in total pop. If you use homes, it magnifies the bonus.

    Anywhere from 10-15% libs usually.

    If you neglect your science, and an alarming amount of Utopians do, by all means, stick to those utility buildings, you won't see the benefit of libs that a province like mine does.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    I start using libraries the moment my pop science has reached 200 BPA. It usually translates to a 3-4% increase in total pop. If you use homes, it magnifies the bonus.

    Anywhere from 10-15% libs usually.

    If you neglect your science, and an alarming amount of Utopians do, by all means, stick to those utility buildings, you won't see the benefit of libs that a province like mine does.
    You don't provide enough numbers, or your math is poor - or both. 200 BPA housing is in itself far from enough to warrant libraries, particularly in the 10-15% range, and especially on a core non-turtling hitter.

    Also, homes pop bonus is additive, making homes equally good/bad irrespective of sci and libs.

    Also #2, science being good is beside the point. This is not a discussion on the benefit of science, but on the benefit of libraries under various circumstances.

    Also #3, 10% libraries @ 200 BPA = +1.6% pop. Compared to 10% homes = ~+1 PPA = 4% pop @ 0% pop sci (or +3.6% pop @ 9% pop sci, which is what your 200 BPA pop gives you) . Your math is bad. Homes are 2.25-2.5 times better than libraries for pop purposes than libraries are given your assumptions/numbers.

    Also #4, homes is an overused building too ;)
    Last edited by Tadpole; 19-03-2016 at 01:18.
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  10. #40
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    Homes bonus multiplies with sci/honor... it doesn't multiply with Halfer, but that is a specific exemption. Basically the Halfer bonus is 25% free homes, aside from the birthrate effects.

    Libs for pop sci isn't a good reason to build them in of itself. It takes some really high sci levels before they are equivalent to homes/banks, just for economic effects. Even then, they are taking from other buildings you might want.

    Using libs as part of a heavy-econ strategy is perfectly fine though; if you've maxed out banks, it's homes or libs for extra money. In low draft situations, too many homes = unemployment, and libs are a way to boost your population/econ while keeping jobs.

    As I wrote earlier in the thread - the equivalency for libs is mostly in the form of extra population or population-equivalents, and those effects are generally inferior to other buildings with the exception of wpa.

    In war, for a province with weak defense, your libs can be shattered by the following things:
    - Land chain and subsequent building loss / cycling. This wrecks any building strategy, but in post-chain rebuilding you'd almost never take libs
    - Heavy massacre/raze. Your econ, tpa, and wpa mods get wasted, and your military mods are far too weak. While it takes a lot of massacre to really wreck wpa, attackers generally can't keep high wizards in the first place.
    - Heavy Learn attack - obviously, if your books are all taken, your libs suddenly become deadweight, and it is very likely your defense is opened up. This can happen often after one of the first two, though wars are usually decided before this tactic is used.

    Really though, for provinces with weak defense, building strats are overrated in general - more important is knowing what to build on incoming acres and how to handle damage to your province. There are generally useful builds for growth, but if you have to hostile/war with high homes it's not the end of the world, if you're something like orc or undead.

    There are some things, like 10% gs, which don't stop a whole lot of anything outside of unusual circumstances (like fighting against a kingdom that can run chains to 1000+ nw/a)

  11. #41
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    I run 30% Homes to go along with those 10-15% libs, so my math isn't wrong, you just assumed I was a noob and went off on a tangent.

    I attack in the 9/10-hour range on my undead just fine, so your assumption that libs used for only turtlers is just dumb.

    But my build wasn't in the original question asked now was it?

    Also, it has everything to do with your science being good. Libs work better with more science and they don't adhere to your BE problems. I merely said the point at which I start using them. It's not for everyone, especially for anybody asking when a good time to start using them would be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tadpole View Post
    You don't provide enough numbers, or your math is poor - or both. 200 BPA housing is in itself far from enough to warrant libraries, particularly in the 10-15% range, and especially on a core non-turtling hitter.

    Also, homes pop bonus is additive, making homes equally good/bad irrespective of sci and libs.

    Also #2, science being good is beside the point. This is not a discussion on the benefit of science, but on the benefit of libraries under various circumstances.

    Also #3, 10% libraries @ 200 BPA = +1.6% pop. Compared to 10% homes = ~+1 PPA = 4% pop @ 0% pop sci (or +3.6% pop @ 9% pop sci, which is what your 200 BPA pop gives you) . Your math is bad. Homes are 2.25-2.5 times better than libraries for pop purposes than libraries are given your assumptions/numbers.

    Also #4, homes is an overused building too ;)
    Last edited by calamity; 25-03-2016 at 17:35. Reason: more text

  12. #42
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    Running homes doesn't change the bonus provided by libs. Homes pop increase is modified by your popsci, as noobium explained in the post above yours.

    You probably shouldn't have such an attitude when you're wrong. (and your build seems abysmal).

  13. #43
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    I generally start building libraries when my calcs say they're worth having.

  14. #44
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    I'm a pure Attacker and I use the "1%/100BPA starting at 500BPA" formula. It helps me out a lot, so I like it. It allows me to lower some of my buildings like Farms and Towers and increase some of my "Attack" type Buildings, like Training Grounds. The Population Bonus is always welcome, no matter where it comes from, IMHO.

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    I am reading a lot of incorrect stuff. That noob guy keeps posting incorrect info. That strategy I told you I would share is a homes and libraries strategy and I had gotten good results.
    My raw ME is over 108% and my Raw BE is over 106%. My province has not been around long and has less than 2k bpa. My province is putting out high numbers. Numbers that are only being seen by my province. I don't come across other provinces with raw ME or raw BE numbers that are the same or grater. It just doesn't happen. And I have a huge army and I am still making good income. My bpa could be a lot better but we like to go in to fort stance a lot so I can't pump as much as I would like. If you want to up your game up the home and library strategy aka the Vines strategy. You're welcome. So to answer the question should people use libraries? Yes they should and they should use them with homes like I have to achieve the same results. And yes I came up with this strategy because no one before has gotten these raw numbers before. So yeah it's the Vines strategy.
    Last edited by Blue Mass; 26-03-2016 at 09:55.

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